Free will? I dont think so

[Latin]

It’s funny - the more I read the replies you’re getting, the more I am convinced of free will!

Yes we have free will, there are two concept of free will, Libertarian free will and Aided free will.
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LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

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AIDED FREE WILL

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3.
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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As God himself operates in our wills, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it.
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We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

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TECHNICALLY SPEAKING

Those who has libertarian free will their fate is not in God but their fate is in themselves.

While for those who has aided free will, their fate is in God.
Because God is at work in them, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
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TWO EXAMPLE FROM THE HUNDREDS

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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When someone speaking about free will should state, he is speaking libertarian free will or aided free will, the two are NOT THE SAME.
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The Catholic Church teaches aided free will, as far as I know, the Evangelical Pentecostal Churches teaches libertarian free will.
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God bless

 

[o_mlly]

God foreknowing our free choices doesn’t make those choices any less free.

A knowing being is not necessarily a causing being. An old atheist knew that much:

An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed [then] for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes (Simon LaPlace, mathematician, atheist).

 

[Gorgias]

It took a long time to convince you of your error, but finally you see the point that I have been making.
"Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible."

Not all do. I could just as accurately say “Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say that the Bible is inerrant.” And, I’d still hold to the relevant point: the Bible is inerrant, not infallible!

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Let’s put it another way. Putting out the chicken has to happen . It’s in your future. It’s fixed. I’m able to see the future and I see it happening. Can you change your mind and give the dog beef?

But that’s the question, right? You can’t assume the contended premise in the question of free will.

Sorry…I’m not sure what you mean here.

 

[Trifleton]

The idea that God knows only all that you might be able to do, but doesn’t know for sure what you will do, is known as “Open Theism”. It is maintained by some theists who believe free will and foreknowledge are incompatible.

I don’t think you have to have that view, however. I believe God knows all future actions we will take, but this doesn’t make any difference for free will. A free action isn’t free because no one knows what it will be - this should immediately raise a red flag. Really, think about it, if you perform a free action now, was it free because no one knew you’d do it? Of course not. It was free because you were the agent behind it, and you could have done otherwise.

This second notion, that “you could have done otherwise” is perfectly compatible with God’s foreknowledge. The fact that God knows what you will do does not mean you won’t do it freely, or that, at any moment in which you act, you couldn’t have done otherwise. It’s just that God knows what you will freely do. For an analogy, imagine a football game happened and you recorded it on your television, but didn’t watch it fully; you just now know the end result and what the goalkeeper did, etc. Then you decide to watch it. In a way, you already know everything the players will do and what will happen. Does that mean you caused their acts, or that they weren’t free when they did it? Of course not.

All the “could’ve done otherwise” clause requires is for there to be different possible worlds in which the action wasn’t performed. In modal logic, a thing, event or proposition can be necessary or contingent. If it is necessary, it means it could not have been otherwise no matter what - for instance, that 2 + 2 equals 4. If it’s contingent, it means it could’ve been otherwise - in other words, there are possible worlds in which the thing/event/proposition does not hold. If our actions are performed by us on the basis of our reasons, and are contingent, they are free. It is us who choose them. We perform multiple contingent acts. It just so happens that God knows which acts we will in fact perform. But that doesn’t mean we had to perform those acts, or that they weren’t up to us.

 

[Latin]

I like your post Trifleton, very nicely written.

When I read it I thought you are must be a member of some Evangelical Church which teaches libertarian free will.

Because your post in reality is a nicely written textbook case of teaching libertarian free will.

The truth is, the Catholic Church rejects libertarian free will and dogmatically teaches aided free will.

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LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

.
AIDED FREE WILL

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

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THE CHAIN OF CAUSALITY

The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza. (Hi is a Catholic apologist.)
Page 84. St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God."
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions.
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3.
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As God himself operates in our wills, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it.
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We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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The Catholic Church teaches aided free will, and some Evangelical Pentecostal Churches teaches libertarian free will.

For more detailed explanation.
Please see my above post No. 281.
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God bless

 

[Trifleton]

Indeed I defend Libertarian Free Will, and I am Catholic. I completely reject the idea that the Catholic Church rejects libertarian free will. There has never been any single explicit pronouncement on these matters, and Catholics are free to hold different philosophical positions on this issue. It is irresponsible to say the Church rejects LFW when it has never even mentioned the philosophical concept or even the term.

None of the passages you mentioned from the Catechism are even per se incompatible with LFW. On the contrary, the Catechism mentions that men “can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions”, even if they can also be “unconscious collaborators” with God. The notion that men can deliberately enter into the divine plan by their actions suggests LFW. The issue of grace is different, and concerns a rejection of Pelagianism, not LFW. While God is the one who initiates the contact with grace, man is free to then cooperate with God. It is also important to point out that LFW doesn’t entail that all of our actions must be free in the libertarian sense, only that at least some of them are.

The issue of free will even among thomists is controversial. Salza’s view is far from being the last word on this subject; there are a number of LFW thomists, and LFW can even be compatible with the concurrentism of God’s actions.

So, no, the Catholic Church does not teach “aided free will” and, at the very least, does not forbid libertarian free will. LFW is a perfectly legitimate position for a Catholic to hold.

 

[Gorgias]

spiritualsamurai:

Freddy:

Let’s put it another way. Putting out the chicken has to happen . It’s in your future. It’s fixed. I’m able to see the future and I see it happening. Can you change your mind and give the dog beef?

But that’s the question, right? You can’t assume the contended premise in the question of free will.

Sorry…I’m not sure what you mean here.

The “contended premise” in your assertion is that the event must happen because it’s foreseen. You can’t assume that this is the case, as you’ve done.

If the event happens not because it’s foreseen, but because you will freely choose it, then your assertion fails. So, for your claim to hold up, you have to demonstrate that it’s not chosen… and not that it’s merely foreseen.

 

[po18guy]

I was going to reply, but chose not to.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

spiritualsamurai:

Freddy:

Let’s put it another way. Putting out the chicken has to happen . It’s in your future. It’s fixed. I’m able to see the future and I see it happening. Can you change your mind and give the dog beef?

But that’s the question, right? You can’t assume the contended premise in the question of free will.

Sorry…I’m not sure what you mean here.

The “contended premise” in your assertion is that the event must happen because it’s foreseen. You can’t assume that this is the case, as you’ve done.

If the event happens not because it’s foreseen, but because you will freely choose it, then your assertion fails. So, for your claim to hold up, you have to demonstrate that it’s not chosen… and not that it’s merely foreseen.

It’s chosen and fixed in the future. Not foreseen. Actually seen. In the hypothetical I have gone to the future and watched the choice being made. That’s what the situation is for God. He can actually see you reading this response before I send it. He sees what was chosen. It’s in the timeline. If God knows what’s going to happen then nothing else can happen.

If you want to still call that choice a matter of free will then be my guest. I don’t.

Being able to make a choice and having free will are not the same thing. Most people seem not to understand this.

 

[Latin]

Please consider, you are the best Architect and decided to build the most beautiful building.

You designed the building, you designed every event down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete the building.

You give your builders the building design, which contains every event down to its minutest details.

You causes every event/ act, which events/ acts tailor made to each of your builders to complete the building.

You and your building design creates/causes the builders Free will = AIDED/ DETERMINED free will, to act according to the building design.

If you would give your builders Libertarian free will to act according to their whim, they would build the Tower of Babel.

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IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE GOD’S BUILDERS

God designed the universe includes this world, He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained and He causes every event/ act according to His design down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete His creation.

Without even knowing, we are God’s builders, every act we perform, Designed, Decreed, Foreordained by God from all eternity and He causes us to do in order to complete the work of creation.

CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions. – By AIDED FREE WILL as follows.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

“Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but UNAIDED we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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As we are God’s builders, for every one of us God Designed, Decreed, Foreordained and He causes every event/ act down to its minutest details, which acts tailor made for every one of us need to do to complete His creation.

With LFW we would build the Tower of Babel.
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God bless

 

[Gorgias]

It’s chosen and fixed in the future. Not foreseen. Actually seen.

Let’s get a little more precise, in the hopes that this will help:

It’s chosen and fixed in the future by the actor, and only in his future. It’s not “actually seen”, as if by sense experience. It’s direct knowledge.

He can actually see you reading this response before I send it. He sees what was chosen.

Only by analogy. And, I fear, you’re taking the analogy too literally, and that’s what’s coloring your impression. God’s not “looking”. He simply knows.

He sees what was chosen… If you want to still call that choice a matter of free will then be my guest. I don’t.

It’s funny that you frame it up this way. Of all the things in the past (after all, you said “what was chosen”), do you ascribe predeterminism to them, simply by the fact that you know what happened at that point in time? Even your own ways of describing it argue against your conclusions!

Being able to make a choice and having free will are not the same thing.

That’s an interesting approach. Are you talking about a freely chosen choice?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

It’s chosen and fixed in the future. Not foreseen. Actually seen.

Let’s get a little more precise, in the hopes that this will help:

It’s chosen and fixed in the future by the actor, and only in his future. It’s not “actually seen”, as if by sense experience. It’s direct knowledge.

There is no ‘his future’ if you’re implying that there could be more than one. And yeah, call it known as opposed to seen. It makes no difference.

 

[Gorgias]

There is no ‘ his future’ if you’re implying that there could be more than one.

Huh? I’m talking about the human. He chooses, in the context of the moment (which we are calling ‘future’).

And yeah, call it known as opposed to seen. It makes no difference.

There’s a huge difference. It implies that God isn’t omniscient, but rather, simply has good sensory apparati.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

There is no ‘ his future’ if you’re implying that there could be more than one.

Huh? I’m talking about the human. He chooses, in the context of the moment (which we are calling ‘future’).

And yeah, call it known as opposed to seen. It makes no difference.

There’s a huge difference. It implies that God isn’t omniscient, but rather, simply has good sensory apparati.

And God knows what you’re going to choose. If he does indeed know that then how many options does that likely leave you? Can you choose the one He doesn’t know?

 

[EndTimes]

Again, I found the arguments lacking “holes” and quite convincing. I’m still not sure why anyone would make that claim.
But I guess we have different perspectives. No offense intended.

For sure. You’re free to believe you’re not free… eh?

_

 

[Gorgias]

And God knows what you’re going to choose. If he does indeed know that then how many options does that likely leave you?

Each and every option.

Can you choose the one He doesn’t know?

I can choose any one of them. He just knows which one I will freely choose.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And God knows what you’re going to choose. If he does indeed know that then how many options does that likely leave you?

Each and every option.

Can you choose the one He doesn’t know?

I can choose any one of them. He just knows which one I will freely choose.

Gee, this is difficult…

You can choose A, B or C. God knows you pick C. Can you then pick A or B whether you want to class it as a free choice or not and disprove God’s omniscience?

To save some back and forth, I’ll give the only answer that’s possible. You cannot. In which case the term ‘free choice’ might seem to apply as far as you are concerned but doesn’t hold up in actuality. It’s not that God becomes aware of your decision after you make it. He knows your decision before you have made any decision at all. He know your decision even before you know that you would be making a decision.

 

[Gorgias]

Gee, this is difficult…

That’s because you’re making it difficult.

Freddy:

You can choose A, B or C. God knows you pick C. Can you then pick A or B whether you want to class it as a free choice or not and disprove God’s omniscience?

I can choose A or B – it’s within my power to do so. God knows that I happen to choose C, though.

Here’s the thing: I don’t know what I’m gonna choose; only God does. So, my choice – by definition – cannot “disprove God’s omniscience”! In fact, whatever I decide to choose – when the moment comes – actually confirms God’s omniscience! (Pretty cool, eh?)

Your error here is conflating a choice within time with knowledge outside of time. There’s no conflict there.

To save some back and forth, I’ll give the only answer that’s possible. You cannot.

As if “back and forth” hasn’t been what this thread is all about?

Here’s the answer. In fact, there are two of them!

1. Within the constraints of the temporal framework:
   I can choose whatever I wish. I am not constrained or required to pick any of the choices, per se. Period.
2. In the context of eternity:
   God knows what my freely-chosen pick will be. He doesn’t constrain it in any way.

the term ‘free choice’ might seem to apply as far as you are concerned but doesn’t hold up in actuality.

I can play that game, too, though:
The lack of free choice might seem to apply as far as you are concerned, but doesn’t hold up in actuality.

It’s not that God becomes aware of your decision after you make it. He knows your decision before you have made any decision at all.

Nope. God’s knowledge doesn’t exist within the temporal framework, so there’s no “before” in that knowledge (which, if there were, actually would act in the way you suggest).

He know your decision even before you know that you would be making a decision.

Again… nope. There’s no temporality in God’s knowledge. Therefore, there’s no constraint in my decision.

Yet again, your insistence for putting God’s knowledge within the constraints of time, causes your conclusions to be faulty. (I think one might say that I forknew this, but then again, that didn’t cause you to say it. )

 

[o_mlly]

Yet again, your insistence for putting God’s knowledge within the constraints of time, causes your conclusions to be faulty.

Let’s test the theory.

I know that your interlocutor will post yet another faulty argument. Because I know that, your poor interlocutor cannot will to do otherwise. Let’s see if that pans out.