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Latin
Guest
Valencia, with infinite wisdom and goodness, God created in this world evil and sin for the benefit of the entire human race.
If God would willed, He could create this world where evil and sin would have no place.
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin.
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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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As we see above Valencia, this world is our training ground and God is our everything, includes our drill Sergeant and trains us to be holy and joyful saints in Heaven.
This is above the only reason God created in this world the dramas of evil and sin.
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Please Valencia, always keep in mind CCC 313, and we all should have the same faith in God then St.Thomas More had.
CCC 313 St.Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.” 182
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God bless
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Latin
Guest
I’m sorry for the misunderstanding, I only reason written the prayer (CCC 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost … for him all things are possible) to prove, the salvation of the entire human race is not heresy, some people wrongly believe it is heresy.
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GOD DESIGNED EVERY EVENT IN THE UNIVERSE, CAST IN STONE AND CAUSED BY GOD.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. His omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.”
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AS WE SEE ABOVE
God Designed, Decreed, Preordained and causes every event that happen or will happen in the universe.
As we see above, every event cast in stone, nothing can change it.
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Someone may ask:
Are our prayers useless then?
The answer cannot be other then, it is not useless, in fact our prayers are useful, God does nothing without reason, as every other events Designed, Decreed, Preordained by God, in the same way the events of our prayers are Designed, Decreed, Preordained by God and the events of our prayers are cast in stone in the same way as every other events.
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Our fate/ destiny is not in us it is in God and cast in stone, in the same way than every other events cast in stone.
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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I hope Jan10000, the inconsistencies are cleared.
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God bless
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valencia
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God Bless you
God let exist the evil but evil is
… Lack of good
God let exist the evil but evil is
… Lack of good
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o_mlly
Guest
The above describes that the decision to change one’s internal disposition is necessarily a free choice. Externals may influence that decision but one decides whether one “cares” or not. To think otherwise would be to deny self-autonomy.
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Hume
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I’ll echo that.
Ordinary Men is a great book about how family men slowly transitioned from civil servants to execution squads who liquidated the Jewish populations often not easily reached by rail (so as to be sent to be gassed).
At first they were horrified by what they were doing. Then came cold acceptance of their situation. Then it stopped bugging them at all.
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EndTimes
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There’s where your argument rolls off the rails.
As in a back door manner - it continues to blame God for misbehaviors due to human free will…
Creation? Including Free Will … Is the result of God’s Active Will…
It is the Free part - which is astounding to expand upon - when it comes to GOD…
For it is God who allows Himself no control over the will of any who has free will.
The additional Fact - that God can - shall we say - See the Future - is as a disconnect to Free will
And does not make God the one who free wills to Sin in any Future…
and/or forcing the will to follow Him and be like Him in many manners.
GOD Creating Moral Free Will in certain creatures - such as Angels and Humans?
Has profound implications…
… especially concerning (try meditating upon it) Reasons … “'Why?”
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Hume
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Ok, so then your god didn’t create the universe and isn’t simultaneously present at all moments in time?
In order for you to be genuinely responsible for your actions, your god has to surrender one or both of those aspects.
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Veritas6
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I’ll grant you that science is able to build ontop of metaphysics, we don’t use philosophy to do physics, but the fundamental reason why physics works is because of philosophical metaphysics presupposed beforehand.
We use metaphysics to understand why carbon acts the way it does, science doesn’t answer why. We then use organic chemistry to understand how these reactions work.
I agree we don’t need philosophy to explain chemical reactions and interactions, but organic chemistry cannot answer why these reactions occur this way (fundamentally). My ochem professor never had a lesson on why carbon needs 4 bonds (8 electrons) to be stable.
Scientists simply accept that electrons are negative, protons are positive, and neutrons are neutral. Philosophy seeks to answer this why, science cannot “replace” these explanations, only build ontop of. You’re partially right but misguided here.
I agree “the acts and possible potencies” of carbon is not meaningful because that’s not what Aristotelians even consider
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nicholasG
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God has foreknowledge IF he wants to use it. Giving us free will tells me He doesn’t want to use it.
This does not make Him any less powerful.
God can intervene in our lives when he feel the need.
God can can create and uncreate.
Maybe we should be asking why He created us.
This does not make Him any less powerful.
God can intervene in our lives when he feel the need.
God can can create and uncreate.
Maybe we should be asking why He created us.
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EndTimes
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That’s tres unoriginal and? ambiguously problematic…
At least you’re acknowledging God Exists - and there’s no taking backsies…
And IF God doesn’t exist THEN: “No Free Will” arguments can never hold any water…
Even WE can know some Future willed-events of others with almost 100% certainty
Even Our limited Foreknowledge of Future Events
does and can not have to have anything whatsoever to do with said wills.
POINT?
Those who Disobey God in a Grave+Knowing+Purposeful Manner and yet refuse to Repent…
… Shall not wind up in Heaven with the Christians… ?
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nicholasG
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You’re assuming this. We can’t know what process God used in creation.
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nicholasG
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We may never be able to rationalize God. As far as free will is concerned, maybe just thinking we have it is enough.
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EndTimes
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aitapyh:
A) The expected shift from your “God Exists In Eternity”
B)No we do not need God to - albeit limitedly -
know some Future willed-events of others with almost 100% certainty
You just haven’t as yet come to see examples of how that can occur.
And more important - even they - demonstrate how
Our albeit - limited Foreknowledge of some rather (hint) immediate Future Events
does not and can not have to have anything whatsoever to do with said wills!
Which in turn even moreso applies to God, Foreknowledge, Human Free Will
C) Since you don’t think so?
The onus is upon you to disprove no free will - and as of yet - you haven’t
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Hume
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Not quite. Why it works is anyone’s guess. The laws of matter after the BB turned out that way.
What makes them clearly superior is that they can be measured, quantified and - most importantly - observed, either directly or indirectly.
No, they’ve asked why too. Depends on the spins of their constituent quarks, it turns out.
[Note: my info is almost 20 years old on this. I may be outdated.]
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Hume
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No, the default answer is “we don’t know”.
If you assert free will exists, prove it.
If someone else asserts it’s purely deterministic, they must prove it.
Neither can do it, ergo the agnostic wins again.
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EndTimes
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The OP author and a few others go about asserting - No Free Will.
Let them Prove it!
They can not…
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nicholasG
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I can prove I have free will.
I decided I’d have 2 doughnuts this morning.
Prove I didn’t.
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Freddy
Guest
This is something I really don’t get. God could have made existence anyway He wanted. And when Democritus formed his atomist theory that really should have been the end of it. Nice and simple, lots of bits and pieces for fire, water, earth and air. Like a big Lego set. Make a plant out of the green ones and a rock out of the grey ones. Make one alive. QED.
But I’m supposed to believe that God decided to make the bits made out of other bits. And those to be made of something even smaller etc. And that we’d have different elements. And they’d have bonds. And carbon would have…let’s see…we’ll make it 4. But hang on, we’ll make different sorts of bonds. We can have ionic bonds and covalent bonds (let’s have two of those types) and dative bonds and network covalent bonds.
Did God decide to make the waters of the firmament and think 'Hmm, I can do that if I make some oxygen and some hydrogen and then combine two hydrogen molecules with one of oxygen. Why two and one? It appears entirely arbitrary. Why not just make a water molecule?
Yeah, you don’t need philosophy to work it out how chemistry work. But when you start asking why it works as it does, it makes zero sense to suggest it was designed that way.
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Veritas6
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I agree, it could be phrased better. What I mean is physics (and science in general) presupposes change in order to be studied/understood/discovered.
One question we can ask is why do natural things routinely act in a specific fashion? Why are electrons naturally attracted to protons?
I don’t think we can truly understand why God does something, but metaphysics is a philosophical approach to understand how the universe works. Physics doesn’t answer why, but philosophy can. Btw I didn’t mention God, I’m talking about metaphysical first principles.
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