Free will? I dont think so

[o_mlly]

So ‘we do realise we do have free will’ is the same as ‘we don’t realise we don’t have it’.

I’ve got to say Good grief again…

Fred, please go back to the post in question.

Restated, removing the double negative:
The fact that we do realise we do have free will is the normal state of affairs.

Excellent!

Your and the other poster’s (?) obsession with the double negative diverts from the point made in the post. The truth value of both statements is logically identical. Your opinion, not argument, doesn’t move the ball down the field much, does it? So, we still need your reply to, “Got any arguments from reality to show free will does not exist?”

 

[Freddy]

You are having difficulty understanding why God might do something…

No, I don’t believe in God. There’s no lack of understanding. He didn’t do anything at all. We have water not because we needed water and God created it. It’s just the result of a chemical reaction. It wasn’t designed. It wasn’t intentional.

The difficulty in understanding is not mine. It’s yours. You have to understand (and then explain to me) why God needed to construct (for example) two separate elements with different characteristics just so He could make water. Why not just make a substance ‘water’? Was God constrained by physics?

When the world was a simple place and we didn’t know much then it was easy to believe in God. Look what He made! Just for us! Now we know more. We understand how things work. We know He didn’t just create the world and all creatures great and small (although, depressingly enough, some people still think this).

And as I said, once the difficult questions start, the standard answer keeps making an appearance:

‘I don’t think anyone can say why God might do something specifically’.

It seems that you can develop complex philosophical arguments for the very existence of God, but when it comes to a simple question such as ‘Why did He do this?’ All we get is a lot of head scratching.

 

[EndTimes]

No, I don’t believe in God. There’s no lack of understanding. He didn’t do anything at all.

Prove it, Freddy!

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

No, I don’t believe in God. There’s no lack of understanding. He didn’t do anything at all.

Prove it, Freddy!

Don’t get excited, End. Just my personal view is all.

 

[EndTimes]

Just my personal view is all.

We well know your personal and false view.

So…What’s up with your apparent need to repeat it ?

Repeating it won’t make it true

_

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Just my personal view is all.

We well know your personal and false view.

So…What’s up with your apparent need to repeat it ?

Repeating it won’t make it true

_

No. But it was an integral part of the explanation I was giving.

 

[EndTimes]

No. But it was an integral part of the explanation I was giving.

A false explanation at that…

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

No. But it was an integral part of the explanation I was giving.

A false explanation at that…

Shouldn’t you be over in the ‘The 12 Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of God’ thread? @John_J_Bannan will be wondering where you are.

 

[EndTimes]

Shouldn’t you be over in the ‘The 12 Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of God’ thread? @John_J_Bannan will be wondering where you are.

Probably … Those who get bothered by me - continue to return"

CC: fred

_

 

[Latin]

@aitapyh @latin Freedom: Is everything that happens decided by God in advance? - Taizé

Taize Community
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Taizé Community is an ecumenical Christian monastic fraternity in Taizé, Saône-et-Lorie,Burgundy, France. It was founded in 1940 by Brother Roger Schütz, a Reformed Protestant.

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TAIZE TEACHINGS ON GOD’S PLAN
“Far from being fixed in advance, God’s plan is what we create in his company minute by minute.”

With other words: This world is SOLELY OUR CREATION, not God’s creation.

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CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ON GOD’S PLAN AND THE PREORDINATION OF IT

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. His omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.”

With other words: The universe and this world is SOLELY GOD’S CREATION.

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TAIZE TEACHINGS ON FREE WILL IS LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

“Freedom of choice: to be free means being able to decide by oneself what one wants to be or do. Not determined by external constraints.”

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CATHOLIC CHURCH DOGMATICALLY TEACHES AIDED FREE WILL

Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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Libertarian free will would be useless for us.

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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Without even knowing, we FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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Dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church: Only God has Libertarian free will no one else, God has given us aided free will.
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God bless

 

[valencia]

@Latin but its notjing wrong in this article

God gave us free will because its in bible. God created everything… God HAVE A PLAN. But the plan is REALIZING NOW. Because is notjing, no future JUST NOW. Future is later. You can say “i dont wanna God’s plan!”

God predestined us only to go Heaven. But choice is really free. His our fathers, not director.

But Yes, I am agree- he is in every thing we do, he is everywhere. Before I was, he is.

So as you can say, God can help us in our choices, He is where I am and tells.

But I can choose- I can murder someone, but God said “no”. Etc.

But things you say and quoted are biblical and true. But still are to free will.

God Bless you.

 

[valencia]

But Latin you are not worng with this aiding. God always win. Afrer death we will have our gifts or “gifts”.

God always win. God ruined the Sodoma etc. But - choice is really free and its nothing wrong. If plan was created like movie- that means our ezisting is fake.

 

[valencia]

@aitapyh @Latin
Everything is lawful for me,”* but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful for me,” but I will not let myself be dominated by anything.

I am agree with Latin that God works every time. But… It still free. God works when He meets two people but choice is for them, want them or not.

Thank you all for discussion maybe I am back here.

Quoting CCC etc makes me more thinking sp thank you.

God Bless!

 

[Latin]

If plan was created like movie- that means our existing is fake.

Valencia please consider.

When an architect designs a building plan, the actions which need to perform in the sequence of events to complete the building it is goes like a movie.
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In the military, the members of the military design the training for the most elite soldiers, they design every event which the soldiers in the sequence of events need to perform for to the end of their training they to be the most elite solders.

The events of their training is like an action movie.
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This world is our training ground in our earthly life, God trains us for to be holy and to be joyful saints in heaven.
God is our everything, includes our drill sergeant.

God designed and tailor made the training for everyone us.

In our training design, every event in our training in the sequence of events goes like a movie, we like it or not.
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In our training design, “God is the author of all causes and effects. His omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen.” – These events in the sequences of time goes like a movie, the movie of our training.
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I’m sure, there are events in our training design that neither of us like but probably these hard events really makes us joyful saints in heaven.

God does everything out of love for our benefit.

I have a good news for you Valencia, in heaven will be no more training.
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We should all, always keep in mind CCC 313, and we all should have the same faith in God then St.Thomas More had.

CCC 313 St.Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.” 182
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God bless

 

[valencia]

God trains only when you WANT. Everything is free. When you work with Him and LISTEN when plan is REALIZING. World is real, true, earth is one. We re not his actors. Known to me priest, said that life is like a travel. We have to travel and Explore. But we can choose between many differents things. Of course, they are created but you can choose. And mamy things are created by us. God didn’t create military or schools. He gave us minds .

Thats all I think, maybe I’ll back to discussion.

God Bless You. Jesus loves us all. We’re his brothers and sisters and Father’s Kids.

 

[jochoa]

All this was known the moment my soul was created.

Emphasis added

Hello @phil3,

The resolution to your struggle is found before that moment because before that moment God didn’t know what decision you would make.

May peace be with you, thanks for sharing the interesting food for thought, and thanks be to God!

 

[o_mlly]

Just my personal view is all.

Oh. Then you should not post your personal opinions as facts. Would have saved me a lot a time.

The fact that we don’t realise we don’t have free will is the normal state of affairs.

Got anything yet from the real world to support your personal view that we do not have a free will? If not then we may dismiss that which you gratuitously proposed as fact as merely your opinion. Next in line, please.

 

[nicholasG]

I wouldn’t argue with you on these points. I agree whole heartedly that decisions are not made independently of outside influences, there is no such thing.
These points do not negate free will, they strengthen them because you also have to consider that I have the free will to select the influences I will follow. If i decide to have a hamburger for lunch I may have been influenced by an add I saw in the newspaper or the smell of someone cooking a hamburger on the grill or craving catchup and thinking what I can eat that goes good with catchup or decide that red meat is not that good for me because I was influenced by a medical paper I read so I change my mind and have fish instead or in the end decide that I’m putting on a few pounds and follow a health influence and skip lunch.
Free will to select to select the hamburger or not.
Free will to select the influence I will follow. In the end I’m still using my free will.
By the way, I know how the magician knew the doughnut I would select, that’s not the problem. I’m wondering how he got the note into the doughnut box in the first place. I’m very protective of my doughnuts.

A concern I and many others have is the Biblical definition of Gods omniscience.

God created me.
He knows all the decisions I will make.
He judges me on the decisions He already knew I would make.
Question:
Why make me in the first place?

People much more intelligent than I have grapple with this question.
I started to think that since a decision does not exist until it’s made than God does not see it but then the Bible says that God knows everything known and unknown so back to square one.
Maybe the “Many Worlds” theory is true. All choices available to mankind ARE chosen and each choice creates another universe. A universe where I chose the hamburger and a universe where I chose the fish.

 

[Veritas6]

No, I don’t believe in God. There’s no lack of understanding. He didn’t do anything at all. We have water not because we needed water and God created it. It’s just the result of a chemical reaction. It wasn’t designed. It wasn’t intentional.

How does this chemical reaction work? I’m not being facetious, let’s think deeply about how things work in the universe. And if you want to make a positive assertion that a chemical reaction “wasn’t designed” or not “intentional” you need to prove it.

When the world was a simple place and we didn’t know much then it was easy to believe in God. Look what He made! Just for us! Now we know more. We understand how things work. We know He didn’t just create the world and all creatures great and small (although, depressingly enough, some people still think this).

Depressingly enough people still think our understanding of God is a “God of the gaps” .

It seems that you can develop complex philosophical arguments for the very existence of God, but when it comes to a simple question such as ‘Why did He do this?’ All we get is a lot of head scratching.

Is this a bad thing? The universe is the way it is and we accept what was divinely revealed to us. We obviously can’t know the mind of God and we Catholics don’t try to provide reasons why God might do something. The important thing is He did it this way (and not that way).

EDIT We could talk about teleology if you’d be interested, that might be of some use in understanding why God might act.

 

[Latin]

God trains only when you WANT.

The following teachings of the Church explains the way God helps us that we, without even knowing, we FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. His omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
.
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …

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As we see above Valencia THE WAY God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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Because God himself operates in our wills, probably most of the time we are FRELY DO WHAT WE WANT TO DO without even knowing, we are cooperating with the graces of God and we are doing what He wills us to do.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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As we see above Valencia, if God himself would not operate in our wills, we could not do even one single good deed in all our life.
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CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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God bless