Free will? I dont think so

[valencia]

Of course Latin. Cause name of -God can be translated as “I am who I am HERE”. And of course, God’s plan is always realizing. And only by God’s wanting we can breath it’s 100% true. We can’t everything.

But you choose by yourself.

But who said it’s planned before our birth? Maybe it something like He everytime show us new elements . It’s more biblical vision. And it don’t argue with everything you quote. In Bible Jesus says “if you…”.

God Bless you.
I can’t discuss anymore and I am not theologist and everything you quoted is right because it’s from Church officialy and from important people.
We have to read Bible, Catechism and a lot of texts from saints.

Bye .

Thats all

 

[nicholasG]

Example: You are on a race track with multiple forks representing choice. You identify with driving your own race car. You come to a fork so you need to make a choice. The problem is, there seems to be something that can at times put up barricades on one path of the fork and not only that but invisible barricades so that you are not even aware they are there. These barricades just by their existence force you into a specific choice that you think you are making freely not knowing about the influence the barricades have exerted upon your choice because they are not in your awareness. Feeling you’re in control is not proof of control. Just chat with a delusional person and you’ll see this demonstrated. Or speak with a psychologist who has.

I think there is a flaw in your example.
If the invisible barricade is intended to represent God then what you’re saying is that God is employing deceit and if deceit is in play then it can’t be God because God cannot sin. Making you think you’re making a free will choice is deceit. God can help you make decisions but He will never deceive.

If the invisible barricade is NOT intended to represent God but some other invisible agency, well, I guess anything goes. I can say that some invisible force is forcing my to make free will choices and discard any influence whatsoever.

 

[nicholasG]

nicholasG:

Maybe the “Many Worlds” theory is true. All choices available to mankind ARE chosen and each choice creates another universe. A universe where I chose the hamburger and a universe where I chose the fish.

Maybe, however if it were true then you would still have to be uniquely “you” and only “you” to make meaningful any salvific purpose concerning your consistent identity. If not there would never be any evolving unique you since every choice made would produce a new you in that moment and only that moment. Ultimately you would, taken collectively, be damned AND saved which would set up a contradiction. Or let’s say there are infinite numbers of you each with their own time line. Would they each have their own messiah in accordance with the unique time lines since each timeline would have its own apostles and their unique interactions with Jesus?

Incidentally since each different universe would presumably be insulated from the other, thus avoiding myriads of contradictions, what would it matter to the you in any particular universe? Your life would continue on in the same manner as if no other universes existed based upon your choices. God would still be the God of your universe, he would still know the choice any one of you made in association with any particular timeline or universe you made it in, that is if any unique identity that is you is consistent throughout its evolving lifespan as associated with a specific timeline.

Some have proposed this as a solution to how you can choose freely while God already knows and sustains your particular future. However I don’t think it would matter as I’ve suggested above. You would still be you in the timeline you are in and God would still know the future associated with that particular timeline.

You have a good argument here but you are assuming that the “other me” who selected the fish instead of the hamburger is the same me. Also you are assuming the other worlds have their own messiah. Why? God creates the other worlds not us. There is still just one God presiding over as many universes as there are.

For both me’s to be identical, everything has to be identical and that includes the free will choices we make.

If I had an accident in this world because I chose to drive that day and lost both my legs, and in the other world I never had the accident at all because I chose not to drive that day than would you say that both leg and legless are the same me?
If I died as a child in one world and survived in the the other world, would you say both are me?
If committed a murder in one world and was law abiding in the other, would you say both are me?

Twins look the same but are differnt.
Both me’s may have the same look the same name the same personality but different because the free will choices are different. In Gods eyes both me’s are different and will be judged by God differently. We see one universe but God sees all universes.

 

[Freddy]

You both are still living completely separate lives unaffected by the other. There would be no epistemological difference.

I think you’re over complicating a relatively simple thought experiment.

Consider a decision you have to make. And at that very moment there is another existence created with exactly the same conditions. So you are exactly you making that decision in both.

Free will would suggest that you are not constrained by anything in making a free will decision. In which case you could decide guilty in one existence and not guilty in the other.

That makes no sense to me at all. If it does to you, then please explain what it is in one existence that causes you to made a different call. Which has been explained is exactly the same.

 

[o_mlly]

And at that very moment there is another existence created with exactly the same conditions.

Fred, please come up with an argument from reality. This silly thought experiment, rigged as it is, doesn’t help your claim. If A → a, and B = A, then B–> a. You say, identical but with a difference, that’s your argument? Logically impossible. Ahab always chases the white whale no matter which copy of the book you buy.

Free will would suggest that you are not constrained by anything in making a free will decision.

Nonsense. Free will does not equate to being capricious in the extreme. Human acts, acts with a moral dimension, are not determined by pure chance.

 

[nicholasG]

The barricades represent a phenomena in reality created by God.

Then a phenomena created by God still comes from God for the purpose of deception. The result is the same. Deception. Therefore I still retain free will.

There is a difference between sin as applied to God and sin as applied to man. It is possible for man to sin because it is action in contradiction by definition whereas for God to sin would be contradiction to existence itself.

Sin as applied to God vs sin as applied to man makes no difference. It’s still sin.

The reason man can sin is that God’s will defines what it is to sin. Deceit is impossible in God because God knows everything. Deceit in man however is possible due to mans limited perceptive ability and knowledge and it is because of this that perception of deception versus actual deception is also a reality in man. God sustains reality while man perceives only a portion of that reality. For man to be influenced in reality, unrealized, by a phenomena of reality created by God is not deception in actuality but only perceptively.

How can I perceive I’m being manipulated into thinking I have free will? If my free will is being manipulated, how would I know? That’s why they call it deception. If I say I have free will and you say a phenomena created by God (barricades) is manipulating my free will. That my friend is deception.

IF we are merely acting according to the reality created for us by God, simply because we are not aware of every nuanced influence of reality on our action does not mean we are being deceived.

Nuanced or not, if the nuanced influence deceived me into thinking I have free will when I really didn’t then that’s deception in my book.

Since God cannot deceive and no invisible entity steered my discussion, my choice was FREE WILL.

 

[EndTimes]

Free will? I dont think so​

No Free Will with regard to e.g., Morality - makes zero sense…
only robots have no free will
And beasts are neither moral nor immoral
and we’re neither robot nor beast

FIRST? You Prove there’s no free will - and then we’ll talk

 

[valencia]

Its impossible to prove it. Bit it still only question, does God know before I do or i am creator of MY future as I believe but He being in NOW is watvhing me and helping. I think its most biblical version. And I think we have to choose and can.

 

[EndTimes]

God know before I do or i am creator of MY future as I believe but He being in NOW is watvhing me and helping. I think its most biblical version. And I think we have to choose and can.

God is always available to point you in the correct direction.

The ultimate choice is up to you / us…

_

 

[nicholasG]

I think you’re confusing deception with influence.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NECESSARY DECEPTION (I never heard of such a thing).

There is such a thing as deception but it’s NOT NECESSARY, it’s DECEPTION (believe something that is not true).

THERE IS IN FACT NECESSARY INFLUENCE.

1. No original music composition without influence.
2. No original novel without influence.
3. No original choice without influence.

Yes, we are constantly being influenced but that has NO EFFECT on free will.
We have the FREE WILL to chose the influence we follow. God may at times try to influence us in a certain direction but ultimately we choose with our FREE WILL.

INFLUENCE DOES NOT EQUAL DECEPTION.

 

[EndTimes]

I’ve said this before…I don’t think you can definitively prove no free will in humans.

Then… leave it be… Free Will is self-evident and requires no proof.

 

[valencia]

Yeah free will don’t have to prove.
Do you think that if God DID EVERYTHING TO US, is He still doing?
@Latin i back Can you tell something about it? If God created and DID everything what He had to do, so can we say that He is still working now?

Does God helps us in every moment as now or he helped us in the moment we was born? I think thay first version is more biblical but what is your opinion

 

[Latin]

Valencia, I can do better than only give you my opinion.
I give you the teachings of the Church on the subject, my opinion is the same.
.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
.
The condition that the above teaching can be possible is, God Designed, Decreed, Foreordained from all eternity and He causes every our tailor-made actions.
.
God is omniscient, He could make our wills 100 % in line with His will in two ways.

One way would be, at our creation God would put all our tailor made graces/ program into our brains which is enough for our lifetime and then He is only watching our actions.
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The other way is, God himself operates in us/ in our wills and He is continually spoon-feeds us with His tailor-made graces/ program.
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
.
As we see above, God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.

As God himself operates in our wills/ spoon-feeds us with ALL THE GRACES NECESSARY FOR ACCOMPLISHMENT, IN THIS WAY NO ONE rejects His graces, we don’t even have to know that we are cooperating with His graces.
.
CCC 307, CCC 2022, etc. As we are God’s builders, God causes us in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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God bless

 

[AlNg]

if there is no free will, WHY do we think we have it?

Because perhaps there is free will after all. I can raise or lower my hand at will. At the same time, free will is not all encompassing but still I believe that in many cases a certain amount of free will is detectable and is felt by the individual making the choice.

 

[Latin]

Of course we all have free wills, aided free wills.

De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.

Some people think they have libertarian free will because we cannot detect that God himself operates in our wills without forcing our willing and our choices.

Only God has libertarian free will, no one else.

St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
.
God bless

 

[valencia]

But we can say God works all the time .

 

[Latin]

But we can say God works all the time .

God never lives us for ourselves, He himself operates in our wills at every moment and He aides/ causes for us every our acts, no exception.
.
CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
.
As we are all God’s builders, God Designed, Decreed, Preordained from all Eternity every our tailor-made acts, no exception, and He provides us all the graces necessary for accomplishment.
.
God works in us with 100 % success rate, we are all His builders, He Designed the building plan, which is also the script/ movie of our life on this earth.
.
Heaven will be a different matter.
.
God bless

 

[EndTimes]

But I have learned that God knows what decision you will make before you make it. All this was known the moment my soul was created. There might be the illusion of free will, but it just isnt so. My path has already known by God. Nothing I do will change the outcome. Because whatever I do is what I am supposed to do already.

At least you still believe in God…

 

[EndTimes]

How can I leave be what I never bothered to begin with? I think if you read my posts my arguments concern what has been proposed as proof of free will …your “self-evidence” is one such contested notion.

I avoid most “prove this” and “prove that” lines of potential endless time-wasters…

 

[valencia]

Okay. I understand. He’s every Day with us. And work. I just asked cause I couldnt understand that God did everything or still doing in NOW. But now i understand.
God Bless you.