Free will? I dont think so

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Its beyond our ability to understand that God is timeless. We think of time because of being flesh and not just spirit. God is Spirit. It seems Jesus speaks of timelessness in telling us " be ready at anytime…" " your sins are forgiven" " forgive your enemies". I bet there are people who wisely pray for forgiveness of their enemies even the ones they havent encountered yet…
 
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goout:
How does “having a reason” negate free will?
If you have a reason, it’s external to you. Literaly everything you decide has a basis on something which is external to you. Your decisions are based on that. They are determined by that. Else what are they determined by?
That is simply false. All of it.
But it does provide a talking point for avoiding human responsibility and moral decision making. So while your assertions are false, they are useful in that regard.
 
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Yes, I believe in God but I also believe that God knows every single decision I will make, once I make it he then know the exact decision I will make. This allow for God to be all knowing and free will.
Exactly - and it’s rather simple to see and realize…
 
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Freddy:
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goout:
How does “having a reason” negate free will?
If you have a reason, it’s external to you. Literaly everything you decide has a basis on something which is external to you. Your decisions are based on that. They are determined by that. Else what are they determined by?
That is simply false.
Simply stating so isn’t getting us far, goout. Can you give us an example of a choice you made that wasn’t dependent upon external conditions?
 
Your question makes no sense. I’m the one asking for the cause. I think you should re-read my thread.
 
Your question makes no sense. I’m the one asking for the cause. I think you should re-read my thread.
A random decision is made when you don’t want to make a choice. A spin of a coin or a roll of a die makes it for you. You absolve yourself from making a choice. It can hardly be called a free will choice when you haven’t actually made one…

That’s strike 1.

If you made a choice, then there will be conditions prevailing that prompted that choice. If you choose vanilla then there are reasons for that. If you choose chocolate there are reasons for that. That implies that the conditions leading up to that choice, should they always exactly pertain, will always result in the same choice. And that includes the choice to spin the coin.

That’s strike 2.
 
It can hardly be called a free will choice when you haven’t actually made one…
But you DID make a choice, YOUR CHOICE IS TO MAKE A RANDOM DECISION. Like said, YOU DID NOT HAVE TO MAKE A RANDOM DECISION. Again, YOUR CHOICE.
No determinism proved.
The End.
 
If you choose vanilla then there are reasons for that.
But the reasons for that don’t override my free choice. Here’s the proof. You tell me what flavor I have to choose, say vanilla. I then override that and choose strawberry. I can always override any flavor you tell me to choose, and alternately, from time to time, I can choose the flavor you tell me to choose. Either way, I have the free choice. There is nothing blocking me from choosing any available flavor.
 
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Simply stating so isn’t getting us far, goout. Can you give us an example of a choice you made that wasn’t dependent upon external conditions?
Can you prove Free Will does not exist? No? We thought so!
 
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Freddy:
It can hardly be called a free will choice when you haven’t actually made one…
But you DID make a choice, YOUR CHOICE IS TO MAKE A RANDOM DECISION. Like said, YOU DID NOT HAVE TO MAKE A RANDOM DECISION. Again, YOUR CHOICE.
No determinism proved.
The End.
You seem to be missing what we are both saying. This is a quote from you from an earlier post:

‘If I eat the burger, then why? Because I am hungry? Well, then that is determinism and not free will.’

So you accept that if there is a reason external to you (and I obviously mean mentally here) then that is determinism. So if you haven’t eaten for a while for whatever reason then you become hungry and eating a burger is not necessarily free will. This, as per above, we agree on.

Now a random decision is not free will. But you say that making a decision to make a random call exhibits free will. But this is the point I think you are missing. Either the decision to make a random call is in itself random (and therefore not free will) OR something caused you to make that decision to make a random call. Just as something caused you to eat the burger.
 
What catechism says about confession?
CCC 1457 According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” …

I personally my daily prayer, every day ask God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive all my sins.
And foreknowledge?
Yes God has foreknowledge, but also “God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe,” includes every our salutary acts and includes every act of our sins.
Latin but still- YOU choose. God helps you, tells you, but you choose.
Correct, I’m freely choose by God’s gift of aided/ caused free will as follows;
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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As God himself operates in our wills/ spoon-feeds us with ALL THE GRACES NECESSARY FOR ACCOMPLISHMENT, IN THIS WAY NO ONE rejects His graces, we don’t even have to know that we are freely cooperating with His graces.
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CCC 307, CCC 2022, etc. As we are God’s builders, God causes us in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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God bless
 
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So you accept that if there is a reason external to you (and I obviously mean mentally here) then that is determinism. So if you haven’t eaten for a while for whatever reason then you become hungry and eating a burger is not necessarily free will. This, as per above, we agree on.

Now a random decision is not free will. But you say that making a decision to make a random call exhibits free will. But this is the point I think you are missing. Either the decision to make a random call is in itself random (and therefore not free will) OR something caused you to make that decision to make a random call. Just as something caused you to eat the burger.
🤕 🤕 🤕

The external cause moving me to take two aspirins before reading Fred’s posts are all the previous Fred posts.
 
I’ve made my arguments. Use your FREE WILL to agree or disagree.
It’s your choice.
 
For those who deny free will and personal responsibility, have you considered the corollaries of such conclusions?

Should we end awards ceremonies (Academy awards, Emmy awards, sport championship rings, etc.) because the recipients were all controlled by external reasons?

When a life in the womb is extinguished, should we assign responsibility to external causes for taking that life away?

I think it isn’t so.
 
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Latin i just want to ask you of somthing one- Judas. Was Judas predestined to cheat and to be bad to Jesus? This things make me uncomfortable.
 
Fred what? You choose to be married or single. You choose to eat sandwich or eat pizza. You…
 
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