Free will? I dont think so

[EndTimes]

Was Judas predestined to cheat and to be bad to Jesus?

No.

Judas I. Freely Willed to Betray Jesus to the Jewish Authorities.

And he expressed remorse for that act.

 

[EndTimes]

I’ve made my arguments. Use your FREE WILL to agree or disagree.
It’s your choice.

YES = The Very Question - Free will? I dont think so

Could be greeted with a yawn. Period

_

 

[Macino]

I can see the future and I knew you’d put the chicken out. It’s ‘already happened’ in the future. There was nothing you could have done to change it.

Do you still class it as free will?

You can’t see the future.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I can see the future and I knew you’d put the chicken out. It’s ‘already happened’ in the future. There was nothing you could have done to change it.

Do you still class it as free will?

You can’t see the future.

It’s a thought experiment, Macino.

 

[stoplooklisten]

It’s a thought experiment, Macino.

Yes, you have an intellect and free will that can design “a thought experiment”. You have a degree of intellect and free will because you were made that way by a Creator who has intellect and free will.

 

[stoplooklisten]

You can’t see the future.

Science doesn’t have the answers about purpose and meaning and morality and destiny.

 

[Macino]

Why do you experiment about knowing the future, when you can’t know the future? Seems like an invalid thought experiment. If you can’t know the future, then there is no problem with free will.

 

[Macino]

Science can’t know the future. Knowing the future is impossible. Time travel to the future is impossible.

 

[EndTimes]

Science

And after all - what is science? who involves? Man and only Man

What’s Man’s Purpose? To seek Knowledge of Everything

Is that possible? Some like to think so.

Knowledge of Everything? Like eating the Fruit from the Tree of Good & Evil?

Evil Knowledge gave us Nuclear Bombs .

 

[QuietKarlos]

To simple the debate down: I ate too much sweets earlier today. I had the knowledge, ability and choice not to make that decision. I could have put down the jelly beans and said I’m not eating them, they’re unhealthy.

Only I was able to change the outcome of whether or not I ate those jelly beans, NO ONE ELSE HAD A SAY. Only me. That means I was the only one who could choose what would happen. If no one else had a say then I made the decision,

Since God gave me free will he technically had no say in the matter (I am not presupposing free will is true here rather showing it makes sense) . He knew it would happen but thought it was worth it to give me the free will to make the choice.

Again, only I had the choice. Since we’ve established no one else had a say and there were multiple options I could have chose then I had free will.

If you say well God knew what would happen as an argument: God knows the ‘script’ of our lives. Except we are the ones who write it. What we will do decides what God KNEW ten thousand years ago. Rather than God knowing ten thousand years ago what WILL happen to us decides what we do now.

I think this makes sense and I think people are over complicating things. God bless!

free will: The ability or discretion to choose; free choice

 

[valencia]

Ephesians 1, 3:4 there is said that God chose us in Jesus. It means that nothing would be predestined.

 

[nicholasG]

I’m sorry but I think you have to look elsewhere to make room for free will in humans.

The only other option for free will is that God does not know the future. This would make sense if you agree with the proposition that God cannot do or know anything against His nature. Knowing the future creates a paradox and creating a paradox would be against His nature.

 

[QuietKarlos]

Part 1:

QuietKarlos:

I had the knowledge, ability and choice not to make that decision.

Did you? How could you tell? Is there a way to rerun the same time span and choose differently to prove you point?

I did have the intelligence (I know because I had the intelligence) . I did have the ability since I know I have previously been able to put down a jelly bean. I can’t rerun time although this does not disprove free will. It just shows that we only have one decision.

QuietKarlos:

I could have

Recognizing a choice not taking does not mean you could have made that choice. The entirety of this notion rests on the feeling that you could have made the opposite choice. Unfortunately there is no way to prove a feeling always translates into actionable reality.

Did you say a choice not taking (taken)? Your sentences contradict each other because you said that there was a choice not taken. This implies free will. Yes it will never translate into an actionable reality since that is not what I chose to do. If it did then I would have no free will since I chose not to do it and it happened anyway.

QuietKarlos:

Only I was able to change the outcome of whether or not I ate those jelly beans, NO ONE ELSE HAD A SAY

This is provably false. See earlier posts

I could have changed the outcome since I could have put down the jelly bean. It was possible. Not anymore but it was in the moment. No one else did have a say, either.

QuietKarlos:

Since God gave me free will he technically had no say in the matter (I am not presupposing free will is true here rather showing it makes sense)

Actually the main reason people started to question free will in mankind is because it makes absolutely NO sense given our definitions of God, creation, and mans limitations.

This doesn’t really go into a lot of detail or prove anything.

God has created for us?

Go to a Calvinist forum.

 

[QuietKarlos]

Part 2:

God’s eternal knowledge which pre-existed creations actualizing that knowledge creates the dilemma of apparent freedom in a predetermined outcome.

Just because God knew something would happen doesn’t mean we didn’t choose it. It isn’t PRE determined its future determined. What I do determines what God knew.

QuietKarlos:

What we will do decides what God KNEW ten thousand years ago

If God’s knowledge were confined to creation this may work. However God’s knowledge existed before that knowledge was actualized in creation. Your decisions/actions were eternally existent in God’s knowledge before the creation of your past, present, and future which sustains your seemingly “willful” actions. So Knowledge and determination of these actions were eternally known before you even existed to make them sustained in time. I’m sorry but I think you have to look elsewhere to make room for free will in humans.

So your point is there is only one way anything will happen since its already written in stone since God knew it would happen already. That means that whatever choice I make in my life will be the one God knew would happen so I really had no choice to begin with.

My choice will be the one God knew. He knew it because it would be the choice I will make. Is the choice I make determined by him knowing it would happen or me making it? Well God’s knowledge didn’t have an impact on my choice. It doesn’t impact it at all. It was always what I was going to choose, yes but the key word there is choose. God knows our decisions but never forced us to make any of them.

Well you can say again: God knew it already though and if it hasn’t happened yet you haven’t even made the choice. Therefore you have no say.

There was a game I saw before where a man had 60 seconds to live and he started doing these bad things. He found out he was just in a simulation which his family could see. His family were mad at him.

According to you this is unjustified anger since although that was what the man would have done he hasn’t done it yet so he had no choice(no free will no morality, how can you blame someone for choosing something they didn’t choose) .

In the same way you would be saying God ‘simulates’ what we will do. Although he knows what we do he will still be mad at us for doing it. Because that will be still our choice. The God knowing it part doesn’t mean we have no free will is my point. Just as the family knowing what the man would do if he had 60 seconds to live doesn’t mean he won’t have any free will in the same situation if he had 60 seconds to live. In the same way God knowing what we will do doesn’t mean we have no free will when the situation comes.

(sorry for any poor phrasing I’m not good at this stuff)

 

[goout]

Paradoxes are a human thing…
The fact that you find something in revelation paradoxical does not mean that God is self contradictory or unreasonable.

 

[Veritas6]

So you accept that if there is a reason external to you (and I obviously mean mentally here) then that is determinism. So if you haven’t eaten for a while for whatever reason then you become hungry and eating a burger is not necessarily free will. This, as per above, we agree on.

I think one must first prove determinism is true before we say reasons for something automatically make it determined or necessary. Can you provide philosophical proof?

What is your definition of determinism? Stanford’s Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines it as “every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature."

What is your definition of free will? What is the will and how could it be free on your view?

 

[nicholasG]

Sin is a human thing. God cannot sin.

 

[goout]

And I have a backache right now.
What’s the point?

 

[valencia]

Choosing before creation dont negate free will.
Choosing to do, not choosing and did for them.
If you will dont believe that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SINS then you could have sin against Holy Spirit.

 

[QuietKarlos]

Part 1

QuietKarlos:

I did have the intelligence (I know because I had the intelligence)

You had the awareness of certain aspects of reality which concern what you perceive as reality. Your awareness is limited. Your ability to perceive knowledge is limited. Indeed our perceptions of reality are necessarily delusional and not a realization of reality as it actually is. For instance we do not see the individual atoms which comprise the objects we experience. YOU do not create your thoughts and then think them, they simply arise in your awareness fully formed. Likewise YOU do not formulate a choice and then make that choice. You become aware of your choice when you make it.
Question is, who/what formulates these things before we become aware of them? That is where true free will resides if you ask me.

I have limited awareness but that doesn’t mean I don’t have enough awareness to NOT EAT SOME FREAKING JELLY BEANS. I am aware of my choice’s consequences before I make it. For example if I hit myself in the face it will hurt. We have reason to know what will happen if we make certain choices for goodness sake!

QuietKarlos:

our sentences contradict each other because you said that there was a choice not taken. This implies free will

Yes it does imply free will. I am not here arguing against free will, nor can I prove free will in man. I can only wonder at where true free will resides given our current understanding of what God is. When I say choice, I’m saying there is more than one available option and something chooses which option, but i am not saying it is the human being who is making that choice freely.

Free will is the ability to make choices freely and we have that. I can make a choice to be rude to you right now (which I might be doing although I’m not trying to) for example. There is also the option not to be rude. There is nothing forcing me to choose one option. God hasn’t forced me to do anything. This is free will.

QuietKarlos:

I could have changed the outcome since I could have put down the jelly bean

Your attempting to use 20/20 hind sight to prove reality. Simply believing you could have changed the outcome does not prove you actually could have. Myriads of people have delusional beliefs about what they could or could not do or have done. Most if not all of reality is perceived in delusion by human kind.

Im not trying to prove free will but showing that ist isn’t contradictory with the idea of God.