Free will? I dont think so

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I’m saying the concept of free will in mankind, alongside of how God has been defined and his relationship to creation does not make sense and even more seemingly contradicts itself. THAT is primarily why the questions about free will have arisen. These questions didn’t arise because free will in man makes the most sense alongside these other things.
Not trying to prove free wil here, again just showing that it isn’t contradictory which you have yet to disprove.
Go to a Calvinist forum.
What am I to gain there that will help us here?

I was joking since Calvinists believe in Pre destination. But you are probably not going to learn a lot from them anyway to be honest 😂
 
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Freddy:
So you accept that if there is a reason external to you (and I obviously mean mentally here) then that is determinism. So if you haven’t eaten for a while for whatever reason then you become hungry and eating a burger is not necessarily free will. This, as per above, we agree on.
I think one must first prove determinism is true before we say reasons for something automatically make it determined or necessary. Can you provide philosophical proof?
If you can point out anything at all that doesn’t have a cause, that is, is not determined by something that occured previously, then determinism would be in doubt.
 
Ok, He knows everything you did/do/will do but that does not change the fact that you did what you wanted to, i dont know your life choices but you made them, God knew you will make them but He gave you the possibility to love Him or hate Him anyway, so if you went to hell you would say “i hate Him but i cant blame Him for what i am going through becuse i chose this path” but when you reach heaven you will say “i love Him becuse He made me and gave me a choice to love Him”
 
It just shows that we only have one decision.
God always know the best decision for us, He created it with everything else and He helps us to freely choose it and we always freely choose it without even know.

Nothing is outside God’s creating, sustaining and governing will, neither is outside His Divine providence.

CCC 313
St.Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.” 182
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God bless
 
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If you will dont believe that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SINS then you could have sin against Holy Spirit.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma ).
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It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver, there is no salvation without it. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.

“Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved Matt.10:22, 24:13, which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand Rom.14:4.”
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.

As we see above Valencia, God decides by virtue of His gift of Final Perseverance that who will spend eternity in heaven and who will spend eternity in hell, this is an INFALLIBLE TEACHINGS OF THE TRENT.

This is above among the highest level teachings of the Church and one of the clearest teaching among many other teachings that God is responsible for the salvation of the human race.

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The way God causes us to freely cooperate as follows:

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless
 
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Everything you quoted i read and its important.

But Latin, I still think you cant believe that God does not want your sin. Known and unkown to me priest said that God cant do anything for us if we really dont want it. If you dont want God, then there is no heaven.
 
If you can point out anything at all that doesn’t have a cause, that is, is not determined by something that occured previously, then determinism would be in doubt.
There are more options when it comes to causation than just determinism or indeterminism. What is your definition of causality? And also your definition of determinism and free will?

And I apologize I won’t be answering that quickly, I’ve been quite busy, but I’m interested in understanding where you’re coming from. I’ll answer all your messages but one of my relatives has a birthday today.
 
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If God already knows what will happen to me, there is no free will. My soul is already going to go to heaven or to hell. I have already made those decisions before I made them. It is done and finished. It is like a book that has already been written. I am have just started to read it, but the ending isnt going to change.
All men without exception are predestined to grace, since Jesus died for all.

Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward.

God knows from eternity those who are destined for glory before they are born into life—that is, “predestined”. Pay attention, then, for here is the point for understanding with justice the justice of God.

There are those who are predestined, certainly. And God knows them before time [even] exists for them. But they are not predestined because God, with evident injustice, gives them every means to become glorious, and by every means prevents any traps for them of the demon, of the world, and of the flesh. No. God gives them what He gives to all. But they use the gifts of God with justice, and hence they win the future and eternal glory by their [own] free will.

God knows that they will reach this eternal glory. But they do not know it, nor does God tell them in any way. Extraordinary gifts are not—of themselves—a sure sign of glory: they are a more severe means than others to test the spirit of a man in his will, virtue, and fidelity to God and to His Law. God knows. He rejoices in anticipation to know that this creature will reach glory; just as He suffers in anticipation to know that this other creature will, voluntarily, reach damnation.

But in no way does He intervene to force the free choice of any creature so that it may arrive where God wants all to arrive: in Heaven.

Certainly the creature’s correspondence with Divine help increases its capacity to will. Because God all the more pours Himself out, as a man loves Him in truth: that is, with a charity of actions, and not [just] of words.

And again: certainly, the more a man lives as a just man, the more God also communicates with and manifests Himself to him: an anticipation of that knowledge of God which is the bliss of the saints in Heaven; and from this knowledge comes an increase of the capacity to want [will] to be perfect. But again and always, man is free with his will, and, if after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

(1 of 2)
 
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To conclude: God knows—from eternity—those who are the future eternal inhabitants of Heaven. But man, with his free will, must want [will] to reach Heaven by using well the supernatural helps which the Eternal Father gives to each of His creatures. And this [must he do] even to his last breath—whatever the extraordinary gifts he has received, and [whatever] the degrees of perfection he has reached.

Remember: no one has ever truly arrived, until his “walk” is finished. That is, no one is sure of having merited glory, until his time has ended, and immortality has begun.

(2 of 2)
 
Part 1:
Gods PRE-existing knowledge -again making God the cause of your actions
God:
-Knows what I will do already-how?
-He is eternal. God knows what will happen although that doesn’t mean it already has happened.
-So God knew what I would do before I did it-yes
-that means I had no free will-Why?
-Because what I will do was pre determined by God already knowing I would do it.

Me:
-Within the boundaries of time
-I haven’t decided my future decisions yet
-God knows the decisions I will make
-So I have no free will because God knows what I will do.

So the problem here is the fact that you are presuming God knowing what I will do means that what I will do is pre determined. I’m going to keep arguing for ‘future determined’ below.
It is not “future” determined because creations future becomes existent when creation becomes existent.
Well you see just because something is determined by what will happen in the future doesn’t mean that the future has to have happened yet. There just needs to be knowledge about what will happen in the future.

For example: if I know that putting on the kettle makes water hot then the existence of that hot water hasn’t needed to exist yet for me to know this.
then the PRE existent determining eternal knowledge of God becomes actualized in reality.
But what God knows is determined by what would happen in so and so situation. God knows what would happen if everything in my life was set up the way it was. God knowing what I would do doesn’t change what I would do rather what I do in certain situations determines what God knows/knew.
God would receive its missing knowledge by the creature (you)
God is eternal and so doesn’t need what I will do to happen or me to happen to get that knowledge.
IF by your existence God created all things effecting you and being effected by you because he knew the choices you would make Gods eternal knowledge of all possible things would of necessity have to be limited until AFTER you were created but this sets up contradiction within God’s being.
I really don’t understand this point
 
Part 2:
No, God didn’t force us to make any of them I agree.
What the heck are you even trying to prove then? If we are forced to do something we have no choice. If we are not forced we have choice. We have agreed CHOICE IMPLIES FREE WILL
To force us would imply that we are doing something which we cannot resist doing. Ironically this would necessitate the awareness in ourselves of a sense of free will since by force your implying that we are aware we are not making the choice
Does God force the horse to be a horse? The tree a tree? The human to be a human and to do what we were made to feel was freely done?
Not really relevant to the debate. I mean God could know whether or not making a person human or not would be fair to them. If it wasn’t then he wouldn’t have made us in the first place. I would say that heaven is SO good God knows everyone should want to have a chance of getting there. You can’t really give any proof against this point.
Because they did choose it
That’s the point. It didn’t happen yet but they still chose it. Just as what we will do we still choose even though God already knew we would choose it.
Just as well ask yourself how God could create any of us without asking us if we wished to be created.
As I said, I think God would know if we would want to be created or not
IS morality possible without human beings having free will. This is a deep question.
It really isn’t that deep. Obviously not. No free will implies no choice. You can’t go against morality if you can’t go against morality since you have no choice. So you can’t go against morality!
Now, if you wish to call doing something freely that you HAVE to do “free will” then kudos to you if it makes you feel better.
I don’t have to do what I will do. I will have other options. Although I will do what I do doesn’t mean I will have to do it.

And I don’t believe in things because they make me feel better I believe in things that I think are true. But kudos to you for believing I believe in things because I want to 😉
 
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Freddy:
If you can point out anything at all that doesn’t have a cause, that is, is not determined by something that occured previously, then determinism would be in doubt.
There are more options when it comes to causation than just determinism or indeterminism. What is your definition of causality? And also your definition of determinism and free will?
Causality is the relationship between an act and it’s effect. Determinism is the understanding that the relationship could not have been any other way (which is not the same as predeterminism which implies a required outcome).

That is, if the tape could be rerun then there would be nothing to change the sequence of events. I believe that we are part of the sequence of events, including the choices we make, so in that sense there is no free will.

If today I could travel into the future to a particular day I would see how this ‘sequence of events’ (which would include the decisions we make) would eventuate. If next week I travel into the future, then if free will existed then decisions taken over the next 7 days would change and not result in the same future. I propose that it would be exactly the same. Hence no free will.

That is NOT to say that we don’t make choices. We do. But under exactly the same conditions we would always make exactly the same choice. That doesn’t represent free will to me.
 
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exactly the same conditions we would always make exactly the same choice.
But that’s the point of free will, no? Under certain conditions we make certain choices because of certain ideas or thoughts. Since we control our thoughts then there is free will.
 
Youre beating a dead horse. I dont agree with predestination. I have read over and over and over that yes god knows the outcome, but since you dont know the out come, you have free will. I disagree with it. Nothing I see written so far on this thread has changed my mind.
 
So are you saying God knowing what we do means we have no free will?
 
If God already knows what will happen to me, there is no free will. My soul is already going to go to heaven or to hell. I have already made those decisions before I made them. It is done and finished. It is like a book that has already been written. I am have just started to read it, but the ending isnt going to change.
So God already knows if you will be in heaven or hell. Why? Because he knows what actions you will choose. He knows your intentions. He knows if you intend to do good or bad and what you will choose.

Can you change if you go to heaven or hell? Well yes. But you can’t change where God knew you would go. Why? Because God knows what you will do.

Does that then mean you will have no choice? No because he knows what CHOICE you will take but that’s the point. God’s knowledge comes from what he knows you will intend to do.

The point: If God’s knowledge comes from your intention then that means YOU choose where you will end up

But God knows where I will end up so theres no point trying: Yes but where you will end up is based on your trying so you’d very well want to try and to have good intention.

Hope this makes sense 😸
 
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