Free will? I dont think so

[QuietKarlos]

Okay so what you said mega confused me. But this link seems to make more sense to me: St. Mary's Catholic Center

I think you’re saying the same but phrased differently

 

[QuietKarlos]

And I appreciate your replies by the way it’s just sometimes I can get very confused with this sort of thing.

Much love and God Bless

 

[Lunam_Meam]

In scripture we read about God asking a man to murder his own innocent son. One side sees that as proof of contradiction in God’s love for us, the other side rushes to extremes to explain why that isn’t so and I’m thinking both sides have a misconception of God’s actions in comparison to mans. In the story about Job…Job had it right. No matter the situation, God is God and requires praise. Now, take the story of Job and replace the heavenly court with an earthly one and who among us would see these things as just practice?

God made Pharaoh to fulfill Gods purposes not Pharaohs. If this makes you uncomfortable then I suppose you are normal. We have to find some way of making Pharaoh the master of his own spiteful behavior because if we don’t what might this say about our own mastery over our destinies?

The facts are stated in scripture. God made Pharaoh act the way he did in order to glorify himself. Turn a blind eye to the facts if it makes you feel better, but that is the way it is.

Now if we don’t realize that what makes us uncomfortable about God is because we are attempting to judge God by human understanding then I think we’ve got a skewed understand of our relationship with God and we are bound for despairing over the why’s of what happened instead of seeking the wisdom to be found in the graces God providentially provides to us.

Regarding Pharaoh, while it’s my understanding he acted of his own free will, this doesn’t mean God created him for his [pharaoh’s] purposes. God created humans for His purposes, but this doesn’t mean He does violence to free will.

Yes, we shouldn’t judge God by human standards, but there is a difference between seeing all that God says or does as the whims of some divine programmer, and seeing Him as a being of infinite Justice and Mercy. We can look to Job, see him as an example, and still give glory to God, but recognize that through Job’s suffering God made good from it.

If it’s your understanding God does violence to free will, I’ll begin with asking the following questions first: what then is the purpose of Intelligence and Wisdom? If we can just sit back, morally detached, and feel whatever we do, good or bad, God is controlling us, why are we commanded to follow His example, and regulate ourselves?

 

[QuietKarlos]

Yes I understand now: Catholics and Calvinists believe in predestination in a different way.

Calvinists think God wills certain people to hell and others to heaven. Thus no free will.

Catholics think God gives grace based on how one reacts to said grace. Thus we have free will.

 

[AlNg]

And the fact that effects are cumulative means that there is an infinite number of them that need to be considered.

How do you know it is an infinite number and not a very large finite number?

There might be the illusion of free will, but it just isnt so.

Free will lies at the basis of our ethical system. Without free will, there is no responsibility. Why punish some for their evil acts and reward others for their good deeds and accomplishments if everything is determined ahead of time by factors out of our control and if we had no free choice in what we did.

 

[QuietKarlos]

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

• [9:14
  The principle of divine election does not invite Christians to theoretical inquiry concerning the nonelected, nor does this principle mean that God is unfair in his dealings with humanity. The instruction concerning divine election is a part of the gospel and reveals that the gift of faith is the enactment of God’s mercy ([Rom 9:16]. God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator.
• [9:18] The basic biblical principle is: those who will not see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who thus makes stubborn or hardens the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the holy Spirit.
• [[9:19] The apostle responds to the objection that if God rules over faith through the principle of divine election, God cannot then accuse unbelievers of sin (Rom 9:19). For Paul, this objection is in the last analysis a manifestation of human insolence, and his “answer” is less an explanation of God’s ways than the rejection of an argument that places humanity on a level with God. At the same time, Paul shows that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, for God endures with much patience (Rom 9:22) a person like the Pharaoh of the Exodus

Romans, CHAPTER 9 | USCCB

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And the fact that effects are cumulative means that there is an infinite number of them that need to be considered.

How do you know it is an infinite number and not a very large finite number?

There might be the illusion of free will, but it just isnt so.

Free will lies at the basis of our ethical system. Without free will, there is no responsibility. Why punish some for their evil acts and reward others for their good deeds and accomplishments if everything is determined ahead of time by factors out of our control and if we had no free choice in what we did.

Now this is a good point. One which we already take into consideration. We allow the concept of diminished responsibility in court cases (even to the extent of using the Twinkie type of arguments: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_White).

So the question is not should we make allowance for that which impacts on our choices, but to what extent.

 

[AlNg]

We allow the concept of diminished responsibility in court cases

Diminished responsibility is not the same as no responsibility. If your actions are already predetermined by outside causes beyond your control there is no responsibility on your part.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Regarding Pharaoh, while it’s my understanding he acted of his own free will, this doesn’t mean God created him for his [pharaoh’s] purposes.

Scripture literally says God created Pharaoh for his (God’s) purpose of which Pharaoh fulfilled according to Gods will not Pharaoh’s. Romans 9:16-17. You may get out of scripture that Pharaoh acted freely in defying Gods prophet but only up to the point where God hardens Pharaohs heart. Why did God have to harden Pharaohs heart at that point? He was already defying Gods words. God hardened Pharaohs heart because it was likely that Pharaoh was going to relent and acquiesce to Moses’s demands. Gods will was that Pharaoh would serve his purposes in other ways however. God intervened in Pharaohs supposed free will.

Regarding Romans 9:17, it’s referencing Exodus 9:16, and there God is telling Moses to tell Pharaoh that God has raised him [Moses] up among his people, so that He [God] may show His power through him [Moses], etc. This ties into Romans 9 because Paul uses Moses, Issac, Rebecca, Jacob, and Esau, etc, to emphasize God raises up, and hardens whom He will, meaning He chooses whom He will fulfill His will through, but this is without violating another’s.

Regarding Pharaoh, against his will, God could have forced him to obey His commands, but He didn’t. And, the purposes of the plagues, in part, were an opportunity for Pharaoh to humble himself and obey God, despite Him already knowing he wouldn’t. However, at no surprise to Him, Pharaoh does not see these as such, rather these actions harden his heart, meaning strengthen his resolve, out of pride.

God drew the confirmation of His Infinite Power, Justice, and Goodness from the stubbornness of Pharaoh, towards the Divine Orders that Moses, His servant, passed down to the Egyptian monarch, who, in this way, understood through the plagues which struck Egypt, the extermination of the first-born, and of the Egyptians and the Red Sea, that God is the Lord. And, the people of God knew it through the prodigies, and were confirmed in their faith in the One God, in their God.

Lunam_Meam:

God created humans for His purposes, but this doesn’t mean He does violence to free will.

I’m not sure what you mean here, but I think in scripture we can see that God has intervened in creation to fulfill his will, even violently.

Violence to free will means to force, or control, and I’m under the impression this is what you believe God does, which is why I asked the following questions to start, and you have yet to answer them: what then is the purpose of Wisdom, Intelligence, and Reason? If we can just sit back, morally detached, and feel whatever we do, good or bad, God is controlling us, why are we commanded to follow Jesus’s example, and regulate ourselves?

(1 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

We can look to Job, see him as an example, and still give glory to God, but recognize that through Job’s suffering God made good from it.

So…now I’m judging by human standards and my finite wisdom here, because God recompensed Job with greater wealth and family than he had before this justified the injuries incurred on Job to begin with and simply from a "divine bet”? God made good from it? Um okay, I don’t know about you or anyone else on here but I have lost a son and have been blessed with other children but the fact that I have other children in no way equalizes the loss I felt and feel of my one son. There is NO equal recompense to replace a loss of what is unique in itself. NONE. The point of Job is not to show that God made good in the end by human standards, unless Job is so shallow as to not give a darn about his entire family being wiped out let alone the question of whether or not they had a say in the matter. The point of Job is to show that you cannot judge God at all. You cannot say God is infinitely merciful and just since counterarguments can easily be made whose only defense against them is “God is mysterious and makes good in the end.” What about the NOW in which the judgement takes place? No…We cannot judge God AT ALL ! If we could judge God as just or moral or whatever we would have to be able to compare our judgement to the antithesis of that judgement and let me tell you as humans can only understand the language they use comprehensibly there are myriads of instances afforded to God that our language tells us ARE the opposite of these good judgments. If you wish to use words like justice, mercy, goodness, and morality as we know them to be defined you best keep their application to those things within creation because it is ONLY for the sake of creation that these things are defined.

Good can come from evil, or suffering. Regarding Job, the good to be taken from his story can benefit mankind, and it’s not that one cannot ask questions about God. The takeaway is during times of poverty and wealth, blessings and suffering, despite human trials, and temptations, we can overcome when we trust in God. We do this by, out of our own will, choosing to do God’s will in every situation. This doesn’t mean we’re asking Him to do violence to our will, again, meaning force or control it. When Grace is present, the Holy Spirit can help us through the gifts of Wisdom, Intelligence, and Reason to recognize the will of God, and understand His Goodness, Justice, and Mercy in it.

Consider Jesus, He too was human, with a free will and soul, and faced human trials, and temptations, but He possessed a stronger will power. Through His obedience to God the Father, He understood His Wisdom, Justice, and Mercy, and thus was perfect in His thoughts, Words, and actions, because He fully possessed God the Father within Himself. By His example we should know, and trust that it is possible to imitate Him, if we apply ourselves as He did.

(2 of 2)

 

[Latin]

What dictates your reaction to the grace. Free will or God.

God is the one who causes every our reaction to the graces, as the result, God is also cause every our actions by virtue of His gift of aided free will.

There are two types of free wills, libertarian free will and aided free will.

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LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL:
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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The Catholic Church vehemently rejects LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL as follows:

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

If God himself would not operate in our wills, we could not do even one single good deed in all our life.
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God bless

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

We allow the concept of diminished responsibility in court cases

Diminished responsibility is not the same as no responsibility. If your actions are already predetermined by outside causes beyond your control there is no responsibility on your part.

I think this is the point really. How much are our actions determined by outside causes?

 

[Latin]

I think this is the point really. How much are our actions determined by outside causes?

CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ANSWERS THAT QUESTION

The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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Ibid. 6. 15: “If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.”
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: “What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.

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Aquinas: The chain of causality:

“It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God.”

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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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Even our cooperation with the graces of God is caused by God’s graces. – CCC 307, CCC 308, etc.
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The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).
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John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
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We always all freely cooperate because:
CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless

 

[AlNg]

How much are our actions determined by outside causes?

It will vary.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

How much are our actions determined by outside causes?

It will vary.

When aren’t they determined by outside actions?

 

[AlNg]

When aren’t they determined by outside actions?

From time to time.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

When aren’t they determined by outside actions?

From time to time.

Can you give me an example when they are not?

 

[AlNg]

Can you give me an example when they are not?

I have before me vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream. You tell me to choose vanilla. i then choose chocolate 80% +/- 2% of the time. 10% +/- 2% of the time I choose vanilla. and 10% +/- 2% of the time I go to the store and choose maple walnut. And when the experiment is repeated, I change the percentages by 4%+/- 3% to verify that I have free choice and it is my decision and not determined by any outside actions.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Can you give me an example when they are not?

I have before me vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream. You tell me to choose vanilla. i then choose chocolate 80% +/- 2% of the time. 10% +/- 2% of the time I choose vanilla. and 10% +/- 2% of the time I go to the store and choose maple walnut. And when the experiment is repeated, I change the percentages by 4%+/- 3% to verify that I have free choice and it is my decision and not determined by any outside actions.

So you intentionally change your mind in an experiment to show that you have free will. And that experiment has no impact on your decision.

I’m not sure you’ve thought this through.

 

[AlNg]

And that experiment has no impact on your decision.

Exactly. I can choose whichever flavor I want. And i can also choose to go to the market and choose to buy an apple instead or decide to go to church instead and say a rosary ( 15 full decades 35% of the time and 5 decades 65% of the time +/- 7%).