Free will? I dont think so

[Lunam_Meam]

Now here we are back to defining what it is to be forced into an action. God most certainly forced Pharaoh into an action he most probably otherwise wouldn’t have taken.

Again…it would seem Pharaohs resolve was strong but only up to the last plague. God then had to step in to harden Pharaohs heart, why because Pharaoh was going to give in. What would that have meant? It would have meant what scripture tells us is the reason God hardened Pharaohs heart. It would have meant that God would have been deprived of showing the Israelite’s and the “world” his Glory and Power.

You said Pharaoh probably wouldn’t have let the Hebrews go, but also that he certainly would have. Which is it?

And, why do you think it wasn’t possible for Pharaoh to have a free will, and God still be able to show He is the Lord?

Finally, since you believe God controls people’s thoughts and actions, I’m curious, if we can just sit back, morally detached, and feel whatever we do God is controlling us, why are we commanded to follow Jesus’s example, and regulate ourselves using His gifts of Intelligence and Reason?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Aitapyh, I know it took you time to compose those posts about free will, so for that I apologize due to the following: your belief humans do not have a free will, and God controls everything, which includes every aspect of humans, renders not only certain other beliefs of yours I’ve read meaningless, but our mere existence. This is because if God’s controlling us, then morals, commandments, etc, are by God for God, even though He doesn’t need to take accountability, repent, forgive, be obedient, have mercy, attain merit, etc. So, what’s the point of anything? There isn’t, which proves mine, and therefore nothing else for me to say. Now, in case you repeat humans may have, or do have “some sort” of free will, I remind you that you’ve also asserted God controls everything, or nothing, so you can’t have it both ways.

Lunam_Meam:

Regarding Job, the good to be taken from his story can benefit mankind, and it’s not that one cannot ask questions about God. The takeaway is during times of poverty and wealth, blessings and suffering, despite human trials, and temptations, we can overcome when we trust in God. We do this by, out of our own will, choosing God’s will in every situation. This doesn’t mean we’re asking Him to do violence to our will, again, meaning force or control it. When Grace is present, the Holy Spirit can help us through the gifts of Wisdom, Intelligence, and Reason to recognize the will of God, and understand His Goodness, Justice, and Mercy in it.

Depends on how you view overcoming? How do you overcome the loss of an irreplaceable child, let alone a whole family? How do you define trust when the object you place your trust in is the destructive agent which caused the need for that trust to begin with?

Regarding the child you lost, first, you have my sympathy, and obviously you’re going to mourne their absence until you reunite, but consider Matthew 5:4, and trust in God’s words. So, in your situation, if you can overcome anything through Him, it’s fear, turmoil, doubt, depression, etc. Yes, death is part of our existence on earth, just as it was for God the Father’s, and the Blessed Virgin Mary’s son, Jesus, but that doesn’t mean with every death God’s striking down a soul. We live in a world where death takes us by disease, natural causes, at the hands of another, etc, but that doesn’t mean God’s always the one behind it. Whether we believe He is directly, or not, we know everything God does, or allows isn’t for evil, and physical death is not the end, and we live in the hope of living with them, and God in Heaven. God the Father loves you, Blessed Virgin Mary loves, Jesus loves you, your child loves you, and your family that remains on this earth loves you. You’re loved by many, and I too extend love for you and your family through my prayers.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

…your belief humans do not have a free will, and God controls everything, which includes every aspect of humans…

I’ve already stated, several times, I cannot prove that humans don’t have some form of free will. Indeed, because we have a sense of free will this may be a legitimate form of free will (from our perspective).

Your assertion God controls everything or nothing tells me you do not believe humans have a free will. Yet, you’re open to the possibility this free will some humans feel to have is a false perception instituted in them by God. However, if God controls, then a free will, even a false perception of it, is meaningless and I’ll explain why.

You said:

When God created, he created everything.

This is Truth. However, the joy of God lacked nothing: God had no need. He is sufficient in Himself. He has only to contemplate Himself to rejoice, to nourish Himself, to live, to rest.

Why did He create then? He made everything for the creature that He wanted to place as king in the work made by Him: that creature is man. Yet, the whole creation has not increased by one atom His infinite joy, beauty, life power.

Prior to creating man, The Supreme Mind has always known that man would have committed against himself the crime of killing Grace in himself, and the theft of robbing himself of Heaven.

Why did He create man then? Certainly many ask themselves why. Would you have preferred not to exist? Does this day not deserve, it itself, to be lived, although so poor and bare, and rendered harsh by our wickedness, so that we may know and admire the infinite beauty that the hand of God has sown in the universe?

The Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man existed, knew that man would be a thief and self murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: Jesus, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.

So, am I to believe God made Lucifer and other angels rebel against Him, to purposefully bring evil into the world, which is against His nature, then created humans just to make them kill the Grace within themselves, and created the Blessed Virgin Mary so She could bring His Son into the world, just so He could kill Jesus by using humans for our salvation, etc, even though He could make all humans go to Heaven, and control them there without doing any of that?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

What I’m getting at is, if God is controlling everything, including every thought/action of humans/angels, then it’s just God role-playing with Himself. As an example, you and I are having a discussion, but really it’s God arguing with Himself. For God to control in the ways you mean, it would mean every belief system, every commandment, and every teaching that is being taught, and reaches the eyes and ears of a human is really God teaching it, and seeing and hearing it from Himself, and every act of good, and every evil that a human commits is really God committing it. So, God is in the world simultaneously disobeying His own commandments, obeying His own commandments, and that of false gods, following Satan, etc, as humans why?

And, don’t blame me, Aitapyh, or God I should say, for disbelieving your views on free will, but to blame Yourself since You, God, are making me not believe you.

 

[Gorgias]

To your point, since there is no free will, that implies - actually entails - that the actor being “blamed” has no responsibility. It is very hard to avoid this conclusion.

However, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t punish the actor

Wait – you’re advocating that we should punish people who are not responsible for bad acts? That doesn’t make any sense.

[we should] make efforts to prevent the act from occurring. If anything, we need to do more, as the underlying cause of the malicious act should be prevented in the future.

If the act was deterministic, then who is to blame? Who’s the “underlying cause” who “should be prevented in the future” from allowing such acts? How would you accomplish such a goal?

I think our reasoning leads us not to re-evaluate concepts such as responsibility, blame, and fault - but rather we need to redefine justice. If there is no free will, justice should no longer be about retribution or revenge, but rather about prevention and healing (both for the victim and the perpetrator).

Fair enough. Yet, your notion of “prevention” seems to have no teeth. How can we prevent deterministically occurring acts from happening (short of locking everybody up in their houses)?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

I haven’t established a belief about free will in humans yet.

Asserting God either controls everything, or nothing, and asserting the former, is an established belief, which means you do not believe, at this present time, that humans have a free will. So, why do some humans feel they do? Your explanation is a false perception of free will instituted in them by God. You think you’re denying this when you say:

I don’t think I would call it a false perception since it is a real phenomenon experienced by humanity. Confirmed at least from my own experience. We have a true “experience” of free will.

However, by putting the word “experience” in quotes, in relation to free will, you’re demonstrating the definition of false perception as I have used it.

aitapyh:

When God created, he created everything.

This is Truth. However, the joy of God lacked nothing: God had no need. He is sufficient in Himself. He has only to contemplate Himself to rejoice, to nourish Himself, to live, to rest .

This means nothing He did would increase one atom His infinite joy, beauty, life, and power.

Consider this, God is complete in himself. He LACKS for nothing. This would have to include the desire for creating. Since any motivation for action is not lacking in God, creation would have to be a foreordained conclusion if it were to ever be an existent thing. Unless the desire for creating were included in what God does not lack we could not say God lacks for nothing.

If you extend the idea that God lacks for nothing on its own, to include motivation to create, then He must also not lack disinclination to create, which makes His intentions contradictory. And, if you cling to this extreme view that God is everything, and Him lacking for nothing extends to every action of His being unnecessary, then there’s no reason for Him to “glorify” Himself in the way you describe below:

God created man in creation for his own Glory and pleasure.

God can, and has created for His own glory without violating man and angels’ free will. And, to say God created to please Himself would mean He is not sufficient unto Himself. See why above.

…scripture says that God created the evil as well as the light…

I assume you’re referring to Isaiah 45:7: “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” Notice He contrasts “peace” and “evil”, not “good” and “evil”, so as He is using them here it pertains to “serenity” and “suffering.”

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[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

For God to control in the ways you mean, it would mean every belief system, every commandment, and every teaching that is being taught, and reaches the eyes and ears of a human is really God teaching it…

Not “teaching” it but having created all things according to their purpose in creation.

You said God created everything. So, for example, this includes false gods, and since you also say He controls everything, those who teach about false gods, and obey false gods, is really God teaching and obeying them, even though He also teaches about the One True God, who He declares to be Himself. So, how is God glorifying Himself by being disobedient and contradictory?

Lunam_Meam:

What I’m getting at is, if God is controlling everything, including every thought/action of humans/angels, then it’s just God role-playing with Himself.

And? Is that not allowed? Anyways that is a way too simplistic view of these things.

No, not prohibited, just unnecessary for reasons explained. And, it is simplistic when one gets to the root of what you’re arguing for.

Why? That is the question. Why if Jesus IS God does Jesus talk to God? Why if God is lacking in nothing, that is, complete in himself, did he feel the need to create? Why does God perform a miraculous cure for one person while another suffers horribly? Why did God give us the shape we have? Why 5 senses instead of 10? Why, why, why? Why create a Satan knowing what he was creating? Why allow us to suffer if he could place us eternally in heaven to begin with, continuously worshiping him in all his glory? Why create someone knowing that they will fail? Who knows the why’s of God? God does according to his own purposes.

If you’re God then you have the answers, unless you made yourself as Aitapyh not know the answers, and if that’s the case, why? Or, did you make yourself not know the answer to that either? I don’t have the answer these two questions, but I do have answers to those questions you asked me, or yourself I should say.

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[truthseeker]

Because God knows you will choose to do something doesn’t mean he forces you to make a decision.
He is aware of every circumstance that will play a role in our decision making and knows what we will ultimately choose but does not force us.
If there was no free will there would be no evil in the world because God would force everyone to be good like Him, instead of giving us the free will to choose Good or Evil.

The fact that there is evil in the world (the absence of good), means there must be free will.

 

[Latin]

GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED AND CAUSES EVERY OUR ACTIONS AND CHOICES WITHOUT FORCING IT.

Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

.
Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
.
CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.

.
THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit.

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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AS WE SEE ABOVE

In His training program God designed every obstacles down to its minutest details, and He also designed His aids for us down to its minutest details, the way He aides us that we all will able to overcome every our obstacles.
At the end of our training program on this earth, we all will be joyful saints in heaven.
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CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[MJCarzon]

I would recommend the Molinist view of free will…it makes tons of sense.

 

[Latin]

Would you please MJCarson explain to us, what is the Molinist view of free will?

Thank you in advance.

God bless

 

[MJCarzon]

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/#MoliSolu

Let me know what you think!

Peace

 

[Latin]

The way I understand Molinist view of free will:

God’s middle knowledge allows both, God is completely in control and humanity is completely free.

The primary distinctive of Molinism is the affirmation that God has middle knowledge (scientia media).

God, knowing infallibly what an individual will do under certain circumstances if offered his grace, God decrees the circumstances and the grace necessary to effect the cooperative action of the individual.

The infallibility and efficacy of grace is due to the infallibility of God’s knowledge, the scientia media , not to anything in the grace itself.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

Above we see God’s Designed, Decreed, Preordained plan of the universe.

Furthermore, these events tailor-made to every member of the entire human race and God causes us to freely perform them in the Thomistic way or the Molinistic way or in the combination of the two. – CCC 307, CCC 308, CCC 310, CCC 314, etc.

The fulfilment of the above events in God’s preordained plan is neither the question in Thomism nor the question in Molinism, the above events must be fulfilled, no ifs or buts or else, if God’s predestined event would fail to fulfil, God would instantly lose His omniscience!!! – So, GRACE REJECTION IS NOT A POSSIBILITY.

We may can reject graces, but WE NEVER DO.

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THE QUESTION IS: IN WHAT WAY OF THE FULFILMENT OF THE ABOVE EVENTS TAKES PLACE?

In Thomism God decrees the graces, the decreed graces infallibly produce the fulfilment of GOD’S DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED EVENTS OF THE UNIVERSE.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
In Molinism God decrees the circumstances, the decreed circumstances infallibly produce the fulfilment of GOD’S DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED EVENTS OF THE UNIVERSE.

God, knowing infallibly what an individual will do under certain circumstances if offered his grace, God decrees the circumstances and the grace necessary effect the cooperative action of the individual.
.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

In Thomism and Molinism, God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.

The difference is only, in Thomism God decrees the graces, which graces causes our free and infallible cooperation with His graces.

In Molinism God decrees the circumstances, which circumstances causes our free and infallible cooperation with His graces.
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What do you think MJCarzon, am I correct?
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God bless

 

[MJCarzon]

It sounds like you are…I think the best course would be a combination of both… To me, as a philosopher, Free will and the existence of an omniscient God seem contradictory. As a believing Catholic, I’ll sign up to whatever the Church says… but there are so many options!

 

[MJCarzon]

The first thing to understand is that many reports of the Inquisition are biased by Protestants and others who try to discredit the church. Apart from that, torture used in the Inquisition was very mild compared to the secular courts. In fact, regular criminals would pretend to be heretics simply to be transferred to the much nicer, more humane Inquisition prisons. What the church initiated as a strictly regulated process, in which torture was allowed for only 15 minutes and in the presence of a doctor, got out of hand when other bodies were involved. I also seem to remember a rule that during the torture, the skin could not be broken. Either way, be sure that you are not attacking straw men, and keep sincerely seeking the truth!

 

[goout]

MJCarzon:

As a believing Catholic, I’ll sign up to whatever the Church says… but there are so many options!

Its this kind of attitude that allowed for the accepted institutionalized torture of human beings by the Church. I for one cannot rectify the Catholic Church with Gods Church for this reason. Perhaps you have some insight into how I may get past this roadblock?

There is good and thorough disputation for some of your accusations. However whether your ideas of the inquisition and the Galileo affair are thoroughly accurate. none of it excuses the rank sins of Catholics. The Catholic Church is full of sinners.

Which church are you a part of that doesn’t have sinners?
You might say yes all are sinners, and that proves that Christ didn’t establish the one true Church. But Scripture directly contradicts the indifferent approach to church. In Jesus’ own words.

 

[MJCarzon]

Well, remember the close union of Church and State in those days. Thus, heresy and other like crimes were both civil and ecclesiastical…

 

[MJCarzon]

That wasn’t a problem before the reformation…when everybody is Catholic, even the rulers, there will be cross-breeding between church and state.

 

[MJCarzon]

They called the first council because Arianism threatened the state too.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Lunam_Meam:

Asserting God either controls everything, or nothing, and asserting the former, is an established belief, which means you do not believe, at this present time, that humans have a free will. So, why do some humans feel they do? Your explanation is a false perception of free will instituted in them by God. You think you’re denying this when you say:

I don’t think I would call it a false perception since it is a real phenomenon experienced by humanity. Confirmed at least from my own experience. We have a true “experience” of free will.

However, by putting the word “experience” in quotes, in relation to free will, you’re demonstrating the definition of false perception as I have used it.

When I assert something it is as a critique of the problems or confusions I see in an argument being presented. I’m playing the devil’s advocate at times so to speak. I have belief in very little with certitude. I have hope in the truth of many things though. I try to leave open the possibility that what I see as contradiction or falsehood in a discussion may only need clarification.

I have not established, with certitude, a belief about free will yet. And, no, why I put “experience” in quotes is to show that our experience of free will is not Gods experience of that same will. It is a true experience for us but only in so far as God wills it into reality.

You have made assertions, and thus established beliefs, as I have shown. That doesn’t mean your beliefs can’t or won’t change.

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