Free will? I dont think so

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“All is Grace” (St Therese of Lisieux)
While all indeed is a work of Grace, we can either accept or reject the many Actual Graces God offers in the journey of life and this is a work of our free will.
Catholic Answers: Actual Grace and Sanctifying Grace

Catholic Catechism: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
II. GRACE
#1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor , the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
#2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

#2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response , for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire


"But Catholics also believe that God predestines no one to hell (CCC # 1037) – this means those who end up in hell do so because they use their freedom to reject God’s grace. Scripture is pretty clear in stating that God gives His Grace through Christ to every one and calls every one through Christ to salvation. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22) and For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (Titus 2:11). Christ came to save the lost (Luke 19:10) and sinners (1 Timothy 1:15), which means all mankind, not only the Elect (CCC # 605, 1019).

Obviously not all will go to heaven. God gives His Grace lavishly or in abundance to the Elect (Ephesians 1:7-8). He has mercy but also hardens the hearts of whom He will (cf. Romans 9:18). Thus Catholics believe those who end up in hell also receive God’s grace, which they pervert (Jude 4). The Elect are the ones who have what we call as assurance of salvation."

Catholic Answers: “Assurance of Salvation?”
 
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Without regard to any future supernatural merits, God has chosen His elect from all eternity, and He has given them His gift the grace the final perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every of His elect, their salvation is absolutely sure from all eternity.

Reply from BarbTh: The problem I have with the above is that it is a denial of free will to some and free will is Catholic Doctrine.

Catholic Catechism - Dignity of The Human Person - Man’s Freedom" -FREE WILL
 
There are two types of free will, libertarian free will and aided free will.

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL:

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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The Catholic Church vehemently rejects LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL as follows:

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you.”
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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If God himself would not operate in our wills, we could not do even one single good act in all our life.
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CCC 301 God does not abandon HIS CREATURES to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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God bless
 
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It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver, there is no salvation without it. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.

“Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved Matt.10:22, 24:13, which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand Rom.14:4.”
o0o____

I can agree with what you have stated above. God does indeed grant the Grace of Final Perseverance, and it can be accepted or rejected - anything else rejects our Catholic Doctrine of Free Will. We can reject the Grace of Final Perseverance through mortal sin. As you stated elslewhere, to paraphrase if I understood you correctly, the race is not run until it is run i.e. to the end (death). That “run” to me is to outrun in and through, because of Grace always in all that is good the temptation and sin present in any and every journey.
Final Perseverance is indeed a great Grace and we should pray that it be granted to oneself…and to all is my prayer. Jesus incarnated, lived, suffered and died for all mankind without exception - and I tend to think that if one does not desire the salvation of all mankind in Union with Him, something is amiss in our spirituality somewhere. It rather reminds me of a mystic (I don’t know if canonization occured) who agreed to suffer all her life in order to save more souls.
Of course, the ardent and active desire for the salvation of all is no guarantee it will be effected since all have free will to embrace God and His Grace or to reject it…triggering a certain sadness in one’s finite humanity and with another paradox so common in our spirituality, triggering also a certain Joy in The Justice and Wisdom of God, in His Glory.

Thank you for your warm blessing and God’s Rich Blessings to you also…and to all.

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If God himself would not operate in our wills, we could not do even one single good act in all our life.
👍 Well said, I very much agree. “GOOD act” being operational.
 
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But I have learned that God knows what decision you will make before you make it.
How did you learn that?

In my humble opinion, God knows every possibility. He might not necessarily know which possibility will come true but He is ready for each one. Otherwise God would know we would get to Hell and so on… and saying “Hell is better than not existing” means ignoring words of our Lord who has said pertaining a certain person that “it would be better if he hasn’t been born”. So my belief is that God knows what we can do not what we will do. Just as a master chess player who sees every option and is ready for each one, God is ready for our choices.
 
We can reject the Grace of Final Perseverance through mortal sin.
WE MAY CAN REJECT GOD’S GRACE OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE, BUT NO ONE REJECT GOD’S GRACES OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF OPERATES IN OUR WILL AS WE SEE BELOW.
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In fact, God’s gift of final perseverance INFALLIBLY PROTECT His elect not to die in the state of mortal sin, without it everyone would die in mortal sin, there is no salvation without His gift of final perseverance.Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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God gives His gift of grace of final perseverance only to His elect.Infallible teachings of the Trent.

It is also Infallible teachings of the Trent, without God’s gift of final perseverance EVERYONE WOULD END UP IN HELL.

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.NO ONE reject God’s grace of call to heaven, because God himself operates in our will.
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CCCS 1996-1998; “This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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As we see above BarbTh, we don’t have to be spiritual geniuses to conclude, God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race by virtue of His predestination to heaven and His provisions of His gift of final perseverance.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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God bless
 
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phil3:
But I have learned that God knows what decision you will make before you make it.
How did you learn that?
From the teaching of the Church. I disagree with the way phil3 described it, but it’s essentially on target.

God doesn’t know your decision “before” you make it. You’re the only one who is limited by the perception of a “before” and “after”. God is eternal, and He knows all things immediately (and without sequence). From our perspective, though, it looks like He knows “before”. He doesn’t, though. He just knows. Eternally.
In my humble opinion, God knows every possibility. He might not necessarily know which possibility will come true but He is ready for each one.
This is an argument against God’s omniscience. The Church teaches that God is omniscient, though.
Otherwise God would know we would get to Hell and so on.
Umm… He does.
and saying “Hell is better than not existing” means ignoring words of our Lord who has said pertaining a certain person that “it would be better if he hasn’t been born”.
You’re interpreting that far too literalistically, IMHO. If Judas hadn’t been born, Jesus wouldn’t have been betrayed and wouldn’t have been crucified and raised for our salvation. Are you sure that’s “better”?
So my belief is that God knows what we can do not what we will do. Just as a master chess player who sees every option and is ready for each one, God is ready for our choices.
God doesn’t exist within time, so He isn’t “preparing” for “future choices”.
 
This is an argument against God’s omniscience. The Church teaches that God is omniscient, though.
Not necessarily. God’s omniscience does not extend to paradoxes (can He make a soup so hot He can’t eat it? Can He make a circle with edges? Can He Sin and be omnibenevolent?). This seems like paradox to know what we will freely choose… but it doesn’t have to be.
Are you sure that’s “better”?
For Judas it does seem like it is. If God desires Salvation of every soul then it’s counterproductive to create bad people. It goes far too close to Calvinism.
God doesn’t exist within time, so He isn’t “preparing” for “future choices”.
Yes, I was trying to somewhat fit it into our understanding but that never works 😃

Isn’t this essentially what Molinism vs Thomism debate was ? One side saying God knows everything “before” it happens and other one saying He just sees options? And Pope ruled that no side is in heresy and they should stop accusing each other of it.

By the way even according to side that was accused of predestination, God actually did give us free will. Free will means we choose according to our nature. God gave us nature. Hence God knows how we choose. My only real issue is that therefore God created Adam and Eve to fall. He creates people to go to Hell and to Sin… which effectively makes God author of sin in some sense. Perhaps I am misunderstanding this and being too close to Calvinism in my imagination of such thesis.

Also thank you for your response. If I am contradicting Church teaching then I shall try my best to understand the topic and conform to what Church teaches.
 
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Not necessarily. God’s omniscience does not extend to paradoxes (can He make a soup so hot He can’t eat it? Can He make a circle with edges? Can He Sin and be omnibenevolent?). This seems like paradox to know what we will freely choose… but it doesn’t have to be.
It’s not a paradox. It’s the error of treating the context of the frame of reference of ‘eternity’ as if it were the context of the frame of reference of ‘temporality’. Yes, you end up with incompatible and confusing results… but it’s because there’s been mistaken assumption(s), not because it’s a paradox.
For Judas it does seem like it is.
Only if “non-existence is better than existence.”
If God desires Salvation of every soul then it’s counterproductive to create bad people.
More logical errors. God doesn’t “create bad people”. He creates people, and allows them to make their own decisions (good or bad).

Besides which… making the assertion “God should only create good people” is an indication that you haven’t read the entirety of the Noah story.
Isn’t this essentially what Molinism vs Thomism debate was ? One side saying God knows everything “before” it happens and other one saying He just sees options?
I’m open to correction here, but no … I didn’t think that was what was at stake in that debate. What’s usually identified in the “Molinism v Thomism” debate is the question of the extent to which a person chooses to cooperate with salvation and the extent to which God forces that cooperation or merely allows it to actualize. (Molinism also brings into play the assertion that God has “middle knowledge”, and maybe that’s what you’re thinking of, here.)
Hence God knows how we choose.
Ahh, but “knowledge” is not “coercion”.
My only real issue is that therefore God created Adam and Eve to fall.
No. He created them… and then they chose sin.
He creates people to go to Hell and to Sin… which effectively makes God author of sin in some sense. Perhaps I am misunderstanding this and being too close to Calvinism in my imagination of such thesis.
Yes, you really are. The Catholic Church vociferously asserts that the notion of “double predestination” is erroneous and unbiblical.
 
Besides which… making the assertion “God should only create good people” is an indication that you haven’t read the entirety of the Noah story.
My point is that they are punished in Hell for being created that way. He creates people who can’t make any other choices than bad ones… or who can’t end up anywhere but in Hell.
It’s not a paradox. It’s the error of treating the context of the frame of reference of ‘eternity’ as if it were the context of the frame of reference of ‘temporality’. Yes, you end up with incompatible and confusing results… but it’s because there’s been mistaken assumption(s), not because it’s a paradox.
I see. Thank you, I think I understand.
Only if “non-existence is better than existence.”
True… perhaps that passage from Scripture isn’t literal.
I’m open to correction here, but no … I didn’t think that was what was at stake in that debate.
I am far from expert on this debate so I’ll take your word that it isn’t related 😃
Ahh, but “knowledge” is not “coercion”.
I agree, but coercion lies in fact they were created and they couldn’t do anything but sin.
Yes, you really are. The Catholic Church vociferously asserts that the notion of “double predestination” is erroneous and unbiblical.
Thank you. Then while God is creating human does he know choices that human will make? I mean… again I am using “while” in context to God so I guess that question is doomed to fail, but I am wondering whether God chooses to create people who he knows will end up in Hell.
 
We receive a thought. We consider the thought. We accept or reject the thought. St Francis De Sales.
 
There is no infallible Grace of Perseverance according to the Council of Trent:

Catholic Culture - commentary: COUNCIL OF TRENT {quote] "To return to the question in our title: Do we have infallible salvation also? The Council of Trent defined: “If anyone shall say that he, with absolute and infallible certitude, will have that great gift of final perseverance, unless he has learned it from a special revelation, let him be anathema.”[13]

However in the capitulum on the material of this canon the same Council taught: “God, unless they themselves have failed His grace, just as He has begun a good work, will so complete it, working both the will and the doing”.

“These two statements do not contradict each other. The first said we cannot have infallible assurance that we will have the grace of final perseverance. The second said that God will complete the good work “unless they themselves have failed His grace.” So there are two things: on the one hand, God will certainly offer that grace, as St. Paul assures us.[15] On the other hand, we may reject it, or fail His grace. If we reject it, we will not have it.” [end quote]
 
Making assertions does not in themselves establish beliefs in those assertions. For instance a hypothesis is an assertion but not a belief. If you believe something you cease to think about that thing’s state…whether it’s true or false. It is one or the other based on what you believe. I have not ceased to think about my assertions.

Beliefs can and often do change when faced with evidences which contradict their certainty. Often these evidences have to be overwhelmingly obvious in order for one to change their beliefs and even then often times are ignored. Once established, a person’s beliefs are very hard to change whether it be out of pride, ignorance, hatred, or even simply fear of change in one’s world view. Paradigm shifts rarely occur and when they do are fought all the way to acceptance. This is also why most people find it very hard to change their religious views based on what someone else has pointed out and not on what they themselves have discovered.

My statements here are assertions not beliefs. I am still contemplating them. My statements take the form of a belief simply to further debate. If I do believe something I will specifically state that and will hold that position until it is shown to be a false belief after which I hope to be strong willed enough to be able to change.

I am having a dialog with you. I make assertions you make assertions, I accept your counter arguments or I don’t as do you, in this way we hope to make progress towards truth.
A hypothesis is not an assertion, rather they stand in contrast. When you hypothesize x, you are not asserting anything about whether the hypothesis is true. It might be known true, known false, probable, improbable, completely unknown, etc. Usually the intention is to determine at some later stage the truth, or falsity, or probability of the hypothesis. When you assert x you’re saying you believe it to be true, whether supported by conclusory evidence, some evidence, or no evidence at all, hence it’s an established belief.

Your assertions/beliefs:
  • God either controls everything, or nothing
  • God controls everything
  • God lacks nothing
  • Free will is a false perception given by God
Now, as I said, beliefs can change, and one of yours above has changed: God lacks nothing. It happened after I presented examples of contradictions that belief creates, and your response displayed acknowledgement, but in a way which also disowned the belief as if you never held it:
Very good. You have shown contradiction in God which is not possible.
Then, you changed your belief to “God lacks nothing in His being”, or “God lacks nothing in His being that can exist”, and that “God lacks things which affect His being to the negative.” If God lacks things which affect His being to the negative, then, for example, how have you reconciled that with your other belief He created evil, which is negative? Or, do you believe “evil” is “good” if it comes from God? And, if so, why create a distinction for it at all?

continued…
 
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Lunam_Meam:
God is sufficient in Himself…
…since God did create, what does it mean to say that God is sufficient in his being?
The joy of God lacked nothing: God had no need. He is sufficient in Himself, which means He has only to contemplate Himself to rejoice, to nourish Himself, to live, to rest.

So, why did He create the universe?

For the creature that He wanted to place as king in the work made by Him: that creature is man. Yet, the whole creation has not increased by one atom His infinite joy, beauty, life, and power.

And, in return for our gift of existence, etc, we should give Him thanks and praise, and obey His commandments out of justice. When we do this of our own free will, which is not a false perception given by God, He is glorified and pleased. However, this still doesn’t mean our existence is needed in order for Him to glorify and please Himself.
The only lasting and defining peace to be had comes from God. ALL peace is traced through Gods good grace. The context of the verses is specific to all that is peaceful or good and that is that these things are specifically traced to God as its defining principle and creator. Any good “generally speaking” and conversely “evil” is defined and sustained in existence by God and nothing else. Good is that which is in accordance with what God has defined as good. Evil is that which is in opposition to the same as defined by God.
When there’s order there is peace, which is an example of good, and that is of God. However, the word “peace” is not used to describe good generally, rather the word “good” can, but that wasn’t used in Isaiah 45:7. This means the words “peace” and “evil” are not used in contrast to mean good and evil generally speaking, in reference to God. There’s a specific definition of “peace” being referenced, and a specific definition of evil being referenced, and those definitions directly correlate with one another.

Note: I say “in reference to God” when speaking of good and evil generally because His definition of morality isn’t universally shared.

You believe everything is created by and of God, which would mean everything is inherently good, so technically there is no evil. Therefore, why the distinction for it at all?

Continued…
 
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Lunam_Meam:
What do you mean by the One True God created false gods to “fulfill all righteousness”?
GOD did not create false gods. That would be a contradiction. What I think God has done is created and sustained the conception of other false gods as being true GODS in the mind of some of humanity in order to give definition to his own uniqueness. You cannot win a battle if you have no enemies and thus no battle to win so to speak.
When I reiterate your belief God, the One True God, created (false) gods, it means as concepts, i.e., their names, meanings, history, etc, not as living entities. And, you’re correct, for Him to do so is a contradiction, as is His worshiping them through controlling humans to do so, as these acts defy His commandment to have no other gods.

Additionally, your response didn’t answer my question.
I think there is two perspectives. Gods and humanities. God’s perspective is reality. Man’s perspective is an epiphenomenon arising within and dependent on Gods reality.
You’ve claimed I keep straying from the realization there are two perspectives: God and humanity’s. In actuality, I’ve acknowledged there is two perspectives, though the perceptions of humans stem from their God given free will, which is not a false perception given by God as you believe.

Interestingly, you make a distinction between the perceptions of God as Spirit, and the perceptions of God as every human, as if they’re separate, yet you assert God controls humans, in every aspect, so technically there’s really only the varying perspectives of God, not God and humanity.

You deny this by asserting:
Controlling is not being.
and, by asking:
…how does it make you the toy simply because you built it and are controlling it remotely?
It’s more like the avatar in a video game. My game avatar is me, because I created it, and I am the agent behind its actions, so it is with God and humanity, according to your beliefs. However, even that isn’t enough to fully demonstrate how control over a living thing in order to create its actions means I am that being. Interesting side-note: “avatar” comes from a Sanskrit word for when a god descends to Earth to take mortal form, making its use in this analogy even more apt.
I think your pride is getting in the way of our productivity. Do you wish ONLY to think YOU are right or do wish to journey with me to the truth of a matter?
I know what I’ve spoken thus far is Truth, and I wish to continue journeying with you, in the hopes of converting your beliefs with God’s help, and your cooperation.
 
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Nothing I do will change the outcome. Because whatever I do is what I am supposed to do already.
Strongly disagree. That would equate to saying you do not have the ability to choose anything, yet you do, do you not? Or do you think you have no choices that you may make that God did not already plan for you? I do not understand this sort of logic at all, and am not being rude I promise, I simply don’t get it? Feel free to expound directly to me if you wish.

Blessings,
 
There is no infallible Grace of Perseverance according to the Council of Trent :
According to the Council of Trent, there is the Grace of Final Perseverance, which gives infallible protection of the salvation of every receiver, there is no salvation without it, (De fide dogma).

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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James akin

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life. In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…[A]fter anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of life. For to many grace is given to whom perseverance in grace is not given.” ST I-II:109:10.

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MY INSERT [Perseverance in grace is only given to God’s elect, predestined to final salvation/ heaven. Those who are predestined to initial salvation, perseverance in grace is not given, without it, they all end up in hell, De fide dogma.] End of insert.
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If one defines “saint” in the latter sense, a Catholic may believe in perseverance of the saints, since a person predestined to final salvation must by definition persevere to the end.

Catholics even have a special name for the grace God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
[43]
  1. Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”
Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – Gives Infallible protection of the salvation of EVERY RECEIVER, there is no salvation without it.
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God bless
 
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