Free will? I dont think so

[Freddy]

phil3:

Nothing I do will change the outcome. Because whatever I do is what I am supposed to do already.

Strongly disagree. That would equate to saying you do not have the ability to choose anything, yet you do, do you not? Or do you think you have no choices that you may make that God did not already plan for you? I do not understand this sort of logic at all, and am not being rude I promise, I simply don’t get it? Feel free to expound directly to me if you wish.

Blessings,

Making a choice does not equate to free will. Free will suggests that given exactly the same conditions you could make a different choice. To use an example, it would be like coming to a decision as a juror and then making an entirely different decision given exactly the same evidence.

 

[Latin]

Do we have infallible salvation also?

According to Catholic theology the answer to the above question is a DOGMATIC AND DECREED YES!
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There are two predestinations in Catholic theology, one to final salvation/ glory/ heaven, (predestined to final salvation), this predestination cannot be lost.
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The other one is predestination to grace, which predestination can be lost, (predestined to initial salvation, for a limited time they join the Church and later they reject God’s graces) in fact, according to Catholic theology, every predestined to grace/ initial salvation lose their salvation and all end up in hell.

They does not receive God’s gift of grace of final perseverance, there is no salvation without it, they are all end up in hell, De fide dogma.

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The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.

“(1) Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the predestined is unchangeable, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience. Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names.

Ante prævisa merita
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.

The Book of Life
God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which contains the names of all the elect and admits neither additions nor erasures.”
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God bless

 

[lelinator]

Free will suggests that given exactly the same conditions you could make a different choice.

But just because you could make a different choice doesn’t mean that you ever would make a different choice. There are a great many instances in which, when faced with the exact same conditions, I would always make the same choice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I lack free will, it may simply mean that given the same conditions, I would make the same choice.

So if someone would always make the same choice, how do we know if it’s because they couldn’t make a different choice, or simply because they wouldn’t make a different choice?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Free will suggests that given exactly the same conditions you could make a different choice.

But just because you could make a different choice doesn’t mean that you ever would make a different choice. There are a great many instances in which, when faced with the exact same conditions, I would always make the same choice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I lack free will, it may simply mean that given the same conditions, I would make the same choice.

So if someone would always make the same choice, how do we know if it’s because they couldn’t make a different choice, or simply because they wouldn’t make a different choice?

Let me put it this way. If you could repeat the exact conditions under which you made a decision then you would make exactly the same decision. If you didn’t then what on earth caused you to change it if everything was identical?

 

[lelinator]

Let me put it this way. If you could repeat the exact conditions under which you made a decision then you would make exactly the same decision.

My point is, that even if I always make the same choice, it doesn’t prove that I lack free will. It may simply mean that given the same conditions, I’d make the same choice.

If you give me a choice between liver or fried chicken, I’m always going to choose fried chicken, but it has nothing to do with whether or not I have free will. I just hate liver. Now in other instances the differentiating factors may be less dramatic, but they may still be there, and so the choice will always be the same. But it doesn’t mean that there’s no free will.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Let me put it this way. If you could repeat the exact conditions under which you made a decision then you would make exactly the same decision.

My point is, that even if I always make the same choice, it doesn’t prove that I lack free will. It may simply mean that given the same conditions, I’d make the same choice.

If your choices are determined by the conditions then it is not free will.

 

[Latin]

@Latin, if you believe this:

Latin:

GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED FROM ALL ETERNITY AND CAUSES EVERY OUR ACTIONS AND CHOICES…

then we don’t have this:

…we all have free will.

If we believe this:

GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED FROM ALL ETERNITY AND CAUSES EVERY OUR ACTIONS AND CHOICES…

Then we have this and our life in Heaven:

Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God bless

 

[o_mlly]

Let me put it this way. If you could repeat the exact conditions under which you made a decision then you would make exactly the same decision. If you didn’t then what on earth caused you to change it if everything was identical?

Ahab will always chase the white whale. We can’t change history so that is not the point of free will nor helpful in moving the argument forward.

The point of free will is that we can, with grace, change ourselves. Free will allows one to either accept grace or reject it. Those who reject grace continue to do evil. Those who accept, repent and convert. Those who convert and experience the same circumstances in which they chose to do evil, now choose to not do evil. Examples: Paul (persecutor), Augustine (hedonist), Mary of Egypt (prostitute), Angela of Foligno (adulteress), Bartolo Longo (satanic priest), Dismas (thief).

 

[Freddy]

Those who convert and experience the same circumstances in which they chose to do evil, now choose to not do evil. Examples: Paul (persecutor), Augustine (hedonist), Mary of Egypt (prostitute), Angela of Foligno (adulteress), Bartolo Longo (satanic priest), Dismas (thief).

They convert? Then I really shouldn’t need to point out that they obviously aren’t experiencing the exact same conditions.

 

[Gorgias]

My point is that they are punished in Hell for being created that way. He creates people who can’t make any other choices than bad ones… or who can’t end up anywhere but in Hell.

I would disagree. People aren’t in hell because of the way they were created… they’re there because of the choices they made. Unless you view the world deterministically (which the Catholic Church denies – and which really would make God a monster, if it were true!), then we have the ability to choose to turn toward God or away from Him. This decision – which happens in a million ways in the course of our lives – is what determines our eternal destiny.

He creates people who can’t make any other choices than bad ones…

That’s a Protestant doctrine; the Catholic Church denies the notion of “total depravity.”

coercion lies in fact they were created and they couldn’t do anything but sin.

But… we can do other things but sin! The Bible exhorts us to do exact that!

Then while God is creating human does he know choices that human will make?

This is where the Molinist idea of “middle knowledge” comes into play. Middle knowledge deals with God’s knowledge of counter-factuals – that is, does God know what would have happened if things were different than they are? (And, more importantly, if He doesn’t, does this impinge on His omnipotence?)

In a way, it’s like asking “the Indy 500 didn’t take place on Memorial Day weekend this year; but does God know who would have won if it had been run ?” It’s a weird question, right? Another way of asking it might be: “I have never been married (and never will); does God know the color of the eyes of the grandchild who will never be born to the child I’ll never have?”

My personal take is that this kind of middle knowledge doesn’t exist, nor does it negate God’s omniscience. He knows all that is.

Now, God is eternal, so there’s no “before” or “after” time for him, but I would take this notion in a particular direction: God commits to creation, and knows all that this entails. The act of creation doesn’t give God new knowledge, but He does not create in order to condemn to hell. So, it’s not like He said “I’m gonna create Orbis so that he goes to heaven, and I’m also gonna create Gorgias expressly so that he goes to hell.” Rather, He creates us, and wills that we use the rationality and free will He gives us in order that we might choose Him and spend eternity with Him.

At least… that’s how I see it.

 

[o_mlly]

They convert? Then I really shouldn’t need to point out that they obviously aren’t experiencing the exact same conditions.

The difference is internal: the free choice to change one’s affections, which change one’s attitudes which changes one’s behaviors. The externals are identical.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I would disagree. People aren’t in hell because of the way they were created… they’re there because of the choices they made.

My only real question is … are our choices determined by our creation ? Or do we have option to fight against it?

Unless you view the world deterministically (which the Catholic Church denies – and which really would make God a monster, if it were true!), then we have the ability to choose to turn toward God or away from Him.

If world isn’t deterministic then does God know “future” in deterministic way or not?

This is where the Molinist idea of “middle knowledge” comes into play.

Thank you for great explanation of “middle knowledge”. I never properly understood it until now.

Rather, He creates us, and wills that we use the rationality and free will He gives us in order that we might choose Him and spend eternity with Him.

That makes perfect sense. I am just wondering how does that align with fact God knows every choice we (will) make.

Thank you for clarifying response.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

@Latin, if you believe this:

Latin:

GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED FROM ALL ETERNITY AND CAUSES EVERY OUR ACTIONS AND CHOICES…

then we don’t have this:

…we all have free will.

Why? It should be obvious, but in case it’s not, it’s because to say God causes our actions means we
aren’t causing them, thus we do not have a free will. This is your dilemma to figure out.

 

[Gorgias]

My only real question is … are our choices determined by our creation ? Or do we have option to fight against it?

All of the Bible – the Word of God, remember? – tells us to fight it… to overcome evil… to choose God. I would say that this is a pretty good indication that God is telling us it’s possible, wouldn’t you say the same?

If world isn’t deterministic then does God know “future” in deterministic way or not?

God’s knowledge is different than our knowledge. “Determinism” is a way of asking about ‘future’ events and how they come to pass. There’s no “future” which God experiences. When folks ask whether God’s knowledge implies that our futures are deterministic, they’re confusing ‘knowledge’ with ‘causality’. God’s knowledge does not cause the events to happen. Therefore, we wouldn’t say that His omniscience proves determinism.

I am just wondering how does that align with fact God knows every choice we (will) make.

I can give an imperfect, human example for the sake of illustration. It doesn’t quite “work”, since we are stuck in a temporal framework (and God isn’t), but it might help: suppose you’ve been there with your child, every day of his life, observing all that he does. You know him pretty well, right? And, at certain times and in particular contexts, you know him well enough that you know what he’ll choose, right? But, does your knowledge of what he’ll choose in his future mean that you cause him to choose it? Of course not.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

They convert? Then I really shouldn’t need to point out that they obviously aren’t experiencing the exact same conditions.

The difference is internal: the free choice to change one’s affections, which change one’s attitudes which changes one’s behaviors. The externals are identical.

So what caused the change? Did they change for no reason? Nothing happened in their life to prompt it?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

All of the Bible – the Word of God, remember? – tells us to fight it… to overcome evil… to choose God. I would say that this is a pretty good indication that God is telling us it’s possible, wouldn’t you say the same?

Yes, that was my initial position but I guess I misunderstood the part about God knowing the choices to mean that our choices are already determined. Which is very well answered by:

When folks ask whether God’s knowledge implies that our futures are deterministic, they’re confusing ‘knowledge’ with ‘causality’. God’s knowledge does not cause the events to happen. Therefore, we wouldn’t say that His omniscience proves determinism.

That just hits the nail on the head for me. I finally get it, thank you

It doesn’t quite “work”, since we are stuck in a temporal framework (and God isn’t), but it might help: suppose you’ve been there with your child, every day of his life, observing all that he does. You know him pretty well, right? And, at certain times and in particular contexts, you know him well enough that you know what he’ll choose, right? But, does your knowledge of what he’ll choose in his future mean that you cause him to choose it? Of course not.

Yes. My point was mostly that if I knew my child is going to choose drugs at a party I wouldn’t really get him there… but then again there is large difference between being a parent and being God who respects our free will fully.

Fact knowledge doesn’t impact causality and fact that God exists outside time explain this pretty well.

 

[o_mlly]

So what caused the change? Did they change for no reason? Nothing happened in their life to prompt it?

They opened their heart and mind to Christ and freely accepted His grace.

Prayer, meditation, contemplation, the Church’s seven sacraments and her sacramentals – things which reflect God’s goodness, are instrumental in receiving His grace.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So what caused the change? Did they change for no reason? Nothing happened in their life to prompt it?

They opened their heart and mind to Christ and freely accepted His grace.

Prayer, meditation, contemplation, the Church’s seven sacraments and her sacramentals – things which reflect God’s goodness, are instrumental in receiving His grace.

Obviously an argument that’s completely invalid as far as I’m concerned. Knowing that, I’m not sure why you made it.

 

[o_mlly]

Obviously an argument that’s completely invalid as far as I’m concerned. Knowing that, I’m not sure why you made it.

I realize that you are hardened in your lack of belief but also believe that others who read what you post would like to know the Catholic Answer.

If you have the same disordered affections, attitudes that controlled your behaviors throughout your entire life then I am wrong. Even in your denial, Christ still offers His grace.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Obviously an argument that’s completely invalid as far as I’m concerned. Knowing that, I’m not sure why you made it.

I realize that you are hardened in your lack of belief but also believe that others who read what you post would like to know the Catholic Answer.

If you have the same disordered affections, attitudes that controlled your behaviors throughout your entire life then I am wrong. Even in your denial, Christ still offers His grace.

He knows where He can find me.