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Lunam_Meam
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Thank you for the reply.Lunam_Meam:
I have not forgotten you Lunam…I will continue our discussion shortly.
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Lunam_Meam
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What does “shortly” look like as its been 3 days already?Lunam_Meam:
I have not forgotten you Lunam…I will continue our discussion shortly.
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AlNg
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I am not sure why God would want some men to be extremely rich, while others are enslaved, placed in chains and bought and sold on the auction block as you would buy or sell a pig. They are then beaten and worked to death or in the case of many women slaves, they would be tortured, beaten and raped. God is all loving and all merciful and all good, so to say that He has designed this to be so seems to contradict what He is.
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Lunam_Meam
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Since the start of our discussion, even now, there’s been zero indication you were “testing” out different theories you don’t really believe in.
The bullet points have been heavily asserted and defended by you, up until I pointed out contradictions, and asked challenging questions, etc, and then they became assertions which you formed a hypothesis around, or “proposals”, in an attempt to avoid taking ownership of problematic beliefs.Lunam_Meam:
I present possibilities here as assertions for the sake of furthering debate, not in order to present what I solidly believe. What word would you prefer to refer to a statement made which is not in itself a belief, but a comment on possibility and/or probability? Let’s call these proposals instead of assertions.
Call the bullet points what you will now, but to act as though at no time were they what you solidly believed is false, as your own posts testify to this.
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Lunam_Meam
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To say evil is not a negative in the sense of being an exact opposite of good contradicts on earlier statement of yours: “Good is that which is in accordance with what God has defined as good. Evil is that which is in opposition to the same as defined by God.”Lunam_Meam:
First of all, keep in mind that I did not say God creates evil, in that it is my personal belief, scripture has said that. Second, evil is not a negation of everything, it is not even a negative in the sense of being an exact opposite of divine good. It cannot even be simply defined as a lack of the good since God is everywhere, is good, and creates and sustains the evil along with the good. Evil is a definition of an existent thing. A concept, action, inaction, process or possibility all given definition by Gods will. Because Gods will defines what is evil, evil has no effect on Gods being.
In Isaiah 45:7 it says God creates evil, and the word “evil” is used in contrast to “peace”. We both agree there is a direct correlation between the two words being made, though I disagree with your belief of what that is: “peace” is used to describe all that is good, and “evil” is used to describe all that is evil, as defined by God.
The word “peace” is not used to describe all that is good, and therefore the word “evil” here cannot be used to describe all that is evil. So, what do you say is the specific definition being referenced for each word? Additionally, please list examples of good and evil, as defined by God.
If our perspective is not reality, which is God’s, and is “misperceived”, then it is FALSE. And, since you believe He controls the thoughts of humans, that means there’s technically only the varying perspectives of God.
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Lunam_Meam
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The joy of God lacked nothing: God had no need. He is sufficient in Himself, which means He has only to contemplate Himself to rejoice, to nourish Himself, to live, to rest.Lunam_Meam:
…since God did create, what does it mean to say that God is sufficient in his being?
So, why did He create the universe?
For the creature that He wanted to place as king in the work made by Him: that creature is man. Yet, the whole creation has not increased by one atom His infinite joy, beauty, life, and power.
And, in return for our gift of existence, etc, we should give Him thanks and praise, and obey His commandments out of justice. When we do this of our own free will, which is not a false perception given by God, He is glorified and pleased. However, this still doesn’t mean our existence is needed in order for Him to glorify and please Himself.
When I reiterate your belief God, the One True God, created (false) gods, it means as concepts, i.e., their names, meanings, history, etc, not as living entities. And, you’re correct, for Him to do so is a contradiction, as is His worshiping them through controlling humans to do so, as these acts defy His commandment to have no other gods.Lunam_Meam:
GOD did not create false gods. That would be a contradiction. What I think God has done is created and sustained the conception of other false gods as being true GODS in the mind of some of humanity in order to give definition to his own uniqueness. You cannot win a battle if you have no enemies and thus no battle to win so to speak.
Additionally, your response didn’t answer my question.
It’s more like the avatar in a video game. My game avatar is me, because I created it, and I am the agent behind its actions, so it is with God and humanity, according to your beliefs. However, even that isn’t enough to fully demonstrate how control over a living thing in order to create its actions means I am that being. Do you understand now?Lunam_Meam:
You’ll have to explain? For example, how does it make you the toy simply because you built it and are controlling it remotely?
Interesting side-note: “avatar” comes from a Sanskrit word for when a god descends to Earth to take mortal form, making its use in this analogy even more apt.
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harshcshah
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The following lecture by William Lane Craig on reconciling Divine Foreknowledge with free will may be useful. He has a good response to the matter in some of his other work and though I have not watched this particular lecture, I think he has a view - on this particular matter - that is generally consistent with Catholic teaching. Certainly, Catholics will find his work useful in apologetics.
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Lunam_Meam
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It’s interesting you “cannot believe” God would instigate the use of torture when, according to your beliefs, He is controlling humans, which means He’s technically the one who instituted, threatened with, and committed the tortures. So, shouldn’t you say you do believe He would?
Additionally, why would torturing be an insult when, according to your beliefs, God created good and evil, controls everything, and everything He makes humans do is “for His glory and pleasure”?
As for me, I know God would not institute torture, and I know the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and built upon the apostle Peter (Matthew 16:18). Does this mean when one becomes a Catholic they magically become perfect? No, and for one to think so is setting themselves up for disappointment. Consider the apostle Paul, who wrote to members of the Church in it’s earliest form, and had to admonish, and guide them personally because THEY AREN’T PERFECT! My illustrating the point that there are humans who will sin, no matter who they follow and what denomination/religion, is not “justifying Roman Catholic Church’s failures.” And, yes, many of those other churches WERE following the instructions of their church leader. However, those leaders weren’t Jesus, and His word is still the MAIN teaching people are supposed to be receiving.
How then can we discern what is and is not of God? If one’s soul is in Grace, then it possesses love, and by possessing love it possesses God, that is the Father Who preserves it, the Son Who teaches it, the Spirit Who illuminates it. It therefore possesses Knowledge, Science, Wisdom, Light.
In conclusion, why are you even against anything the Roman Catholic Church has done or does when, according to your beliefs, God is controlling humans, and everything He makes us do is “for His glory and pleasure”? Ah, because He made you be…for His own glory and pleasure.
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Lunam_Meam
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Proof isn’t necessary to understand or believe wholeheartedly, and there’s been zero indication you’ve understood, or believed the bullet points less than that. And, I have been keeping your beliefs in context of each other, because they’re illogical when they interact, e.g., God controlling everything in creation, lack of free will — these result in contradicting other beliefs.Lunam_Meam:
That is because they are part of the theory being debated. I can’t endorse this theory full heartedly since I can’t really fully understand how these things are possible, let alone prove that they are true for existence. I can only debate why they seem truly consistent, or not as compared to what else has been offered and defined here.
I think you’ve pointed out what you thought were contradictions in what I believe, but were actually only parts of the conversation taken in isolation from the rest.
The beauty is your and my posts testify to the truth I’ve spoken.
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Lunam_Meam
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God creating [concept of] false gods, and worshiping them by controlling humans to do so, are contradictions as these acts defy His commandment to have no other gods.
Your having said evil is in opposition of, and contrasts good, is to say evil is an exact opposite, which means “complete opposite”. In existence there is someone whom is an exact opposite to God, and in a class by itself: Satan, the incubator of evil, of his own free will.
So, your new assertion evil is not an exact opposite of good not only contradicts the former, but means evil does not exist, thus what we are made to perceive as evil is not so, rather the only force that does exist: good.
I see a correlation within each pair of words, but not that all four correlate with one another.
Light and peace are good and of God, but neither word is used to sum up the general good of God, or what some would call “morality”. Therefore, the words “darkness” and “evil” here are not used to sum up the general evil, or what some would call "immorality’’.
I understand in this case “light” and “darkness” refers to “knowledge” and “ignorance”, and “peace” and “evil” refers to “prosperity” and “calamity”.
Regarding “I the Lord that do all these things” in verse 7, that’s in reference to all God said He does beginning at verse 2 of the chapter.
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Lunam_Meam
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Your belief God controls humans means our perspectives come from Him, and thus they are His.Lunam_Meam:
I did not say our perspective is God’s.
The perception free will exists is false, as in we don’t actually have a free will, despite some thinking we do, if we are controlled.
Controlling is being. It’s like the avatar in a video game. My game avatar is me, because I created it, and I am the agent behind its actions, so it is with God and humanity, according to your beliefs. However, even that isn’t enough to fully demonstrate how control over a living thing in order to create its actions means I am that being. Do you understand now?
Interesting side-note: “avatar” comes from a Sanskrit word for when a god descends to Earth to take mortal form, making its use in this analogy even more apt.
If you’re referring to Rev. 4:11 when you say God created for His own glory and pleasure, it actually says God is worthy of glory, honor, and power because He has created all things, and they were created because He willed it so. Note: “all things” refers to all He created, not everything in existence, because, for example, God did not create evil, or immorality in other words.Lunam_Meam:
This flies in the face of scripture which says that all creation was for the glory of God not his created creatures.
So, my belief God created the universe for man does not fly in the face of scripture.
P.S. see current unaddressed post 1261
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Paddy1989
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I don’t think this interpretation of predestination is correct. We are ALL predestined to be United with God who his love. For example when parents bring a new child into the world they predestine that Child to be brought into a loving environment in which the decisions they make throughout their lives will lead them down a road of love and joy. However they still have the free will to go against all of this, make choices that lead to misery and pain. This is the reality of free will.
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Lunam_Meam
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The term “false god” refers to (i) something that is illegitimate or non-functioning in its professed authority or capability, e.g., Amon, the chief god of Egypt, Asherah, a Canaanite goddess, etc, and (ii) anything that is considered to assume a place of undue importance in one’s life, e.g., money, sex, power, etc.Lunam_Meam:
…creating an actual God that is not a God (false) would be a contradiction. However, creating in his creatures the conception of false Gods would not be.
I would say that in creating these other things God has given definition to his commandments. If God had said thou shalt not do such and such but there was no such and such not to do then what meaning would it have?
God commands there be no other gods above Him, meaning of any kind, in any way. Therefore, for Him to create and worship any desire above Himself, even in concept, is a god, and contradicts His command.
And, funnily enough, while God’s commandments do have meaning, contrary to what you believe, your beliefs do not allow them to. To clarify, for example, scripture speaks of judgement day, where God will separate the sheep from the goats. These animals represent those who were and were not faithful in obeying His commandments, and each group will be rewarded or punished for their deeds. When we integrate this with your belief God creates and controls everything, it renders having commandments at all as meaningless, but also what we read in scripture about Jesus’s sacrifice, Satan, sin, faith, repentance, forgiveness, punishment, etc, because He could’ve made all humans only be faithful, and thus perfect.
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Lunam_Meam
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I don’t disagree with your post in full, but, for the most part, your response is in relation to a different angle of the same issue.
Where I’m coming from is if God completely controls humans, then what we perceive comes from Him, and thus they are ultimately are His perceptions.
And, if God completely controls humans, then those He made to believe humans are not controlled, rather have a free will, is a belief that is in itself inaccurate, i.e., a false perception.
Your avatar is “you” in how the only perspective and will it has is your own. It has no way of dictating your actions because it only exists as a way of carrying out your will in a limited environment.Lunam_Meam:
Not quite. Your avatar is not you. It is an extension of your will. You preexisted your creation of your avatar, you dictate its actions but its actions do not dictate yours, you animate your thoughts through it, it doesn’t animate you through its thoughts. Indeed it has no thoughts of its own. All that your avatar can do you have given it but all that that avatar can do is not all that you can do. Need I go on?aitapyh:
It’s more like the avatar in a video game. My game avatar is me , because I created it, and I am the agent behind its actions, so it is with God and humanity, according to your beliefs. However, even that isn’t enough to fully demonstrate how control over a living thing in order to create its actions means I am that being. However, even that isn’t enough to fully demonstrate how control over a living thing in order to create its actions means I am that being.Lunam_Meam:
You’ll have to explain? For example, how does it make you the toy simply because you built it and are controlling it remotely?
Do you understand now?
Now, I said this isn’t a perfect analogy because it isn’t exactly the same as God controlling a living being, especially as it would be according to what you have asserted. God, not being separate from us, in the way a virtual world would be from a gamer, and being fully in control of each human being, makes His the only will to exist, and none of us have a personal identity outside of God.
Other than that, everything else you said indicates you’re capable of understanding, so perhaps you do now?
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AlNg
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I thought we were trying to prove or disprove that man has free will.
Your point here though is an argument in favor of man’s free will to choose the bad over the good. If everything was determined and man has no choice, then it would be God who was directly responsible for the torture. But this would contradict who God is: an all powerful, all loving, and all merciful Being. OTOH, suppose that God did not exist. Then there is no reason for harmony or order and in fact some interpretations of the quantum theory argue for uncertainty. If everything is ultimately chaotic and uncertain, then nothing can be completely determined and so our choices are free at least to some extent.
So in either case, theism or atheism, man has free will. Of course it is not an absolute free will, but one that may be conditioned by the circumstances.
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Lunam_Meam
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It’s interesting you “cannot believe” God would instigate the use of torture when, according to your beliefs, He completely controls humans, which means He’s technically the one who instituted, threatened with, and committed the tortures. So, shouldn’t you say you do believe He would?
Why would torturing be an insult when, according to your beliefs, God completely created and controls everything, and everything He makes humans do is “for His glory and pleasure”?
Why are you even against anything done within or outside the Roman Catholic Church when, according to your beliefs, God completely controls humans, and everything He makes us do is “for His glory and pleasure”? Ah, because He made you be…for His own glory and pleasure. Any ideas how?
As for me, I know the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and built upon the apostle Peter (Matthew 16:18). Does this mean when one becomes a Catholic they magically become perfect? No, and for one to think so is setting themselves up for disappointment. Consider the apostle Paul, who wrote to members of the Church in it’s earliest form, and had to admonish, and guide them personally because THEY WEREN’T PERFECT!
Now, my illustrating the point that there are humans who will sin, no matter who they follow and what denomination/religion, is not justifying the Roman Catholic Church’s failures. And, yes, many of those other churches WERE following the instructions of their church leader. However, those leaders weren’t Jesus, and His word is still the MAIN teaching people are supposed to be receiving.
How then can we discern what is and is not of God? If one’s soul is in Grace, then it possesses love, and by possessing love it possesses God, that is the Father Who preserves it, the Son Who teaches it, the Spirit Who illuminates it. It therefore possesses Knowledge, Science, Wisdom, Light. And, for one thing, I know God did not institute torture.
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Lunam_Meam
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I said there’s been zero indication you’ve understood, or believed the bullet points less than wholeheartedly.Lunam_Meam:
Are you saying I don’t understand the bullet points you’ve presented about my own “statements”?
I see you missed the two assertions I referenced as examples (see bolded above). And, your cluelessness right now as to what all assertions of yours I consider illogical, and the accusation I haven’t been showing why is peculiar, as you have been and are presenting “counter-arguments” to my explanations in other posts…Lunam_Meam:
Which statement of mine do you think is illogical when it interacts with another of my statements? You keep bantering the same position but you’re not showing why or not addressing my counterarguments.
If you meant to say from your standpoint I haven’t shown why successfully, well, that is why I’m still hammering away at attempting to help you understand.
I was saying our posts testify to the truth of certain beliefs of yours being contradictory, but it seems you somehow misunderstood “truth” to mean the overall truth of my beliefs in reference to God? Either way, to answer your question, when I am or I am not certain in x, then I won’t pretend otherwise. When I am certain in x, I strive to keep vigilant of my certainty, so that I don’t become prideful in it, as in arrogant. There have been times in my life when I was certain in x, then I became arrogant, and whether I was proved wrong or not, I humbled myself, by God’s Grace. Note: Not all forms of pride are damaging to the soul and could lead to irreversible doom.Lunam_Meam:
Of course you’ve spoken the truth and I haven’t. You haven’t presented a good demonstration of why but hey what do I know, it’s your truth apparently so we should just run with it.
Only a fool is absolutely certain in this world when it comes to these things. If you have faith in a belief and you are proven wrong there is still hope for you. If you have certainty in a truth which is proven wrong then you are doomed. So, do you have faith in your truth or do you have certainty?
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Lunam_Meam
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Liquid/solid foods, like good (morality)/evil (immorality), and God/Satan, are opposite, as in “diametrically different (as in nature or character)”, in other words, complete, or exact opposites, and remain thus, whether or not they can share a purpose, or are created by the same source.
More on God and Satan specifically, the way they are exact opposites is one operates only for good, and the other only for evil.
Note: an exact opposite isn’t required to be opposite in every aspect.
What is the origin of evil?
Your answer: Evil was created by God.
What is your point of reference for this? Isaiah 45:7? — see final paragraph in post 1265.
My answer: In the angels — different in nature and perfection from all of us — there is, as in us, free will. God has created no one a slave. In the beginning there was in creation only Order, but that Order does not exclude freedom. Rather in that Order is perfect freedom. To be exact, in such order there is not even the fear of an invasion, an intrusion, of the anarchy of other wills which could produce collusion, and ruin that penetrate into the orbit and trajectory of other beings or created things. Thus it was for the whole Universe, before Lucifer abused his own freedom, and with his own will, put into himself the disorder of passions, so as to create disorder in that perfect Order. Had he been all love, he would have had no place in himself for anything that was not love. Instead he had a place for arrogant pride which could be called: the disorder of the intellect.
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Lunam_Meam
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continued…
Would God have been able to hinder this deed? Yes. But, why violate the free will of the most beautiful, most intelligent archangel? Would not He Himself, the Most Just, then have put disorder into His own ordered Thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is, the freedom of the archangel? God does not oppress a troubled spirit in order violently to place it in the impossibility of sinning. Lucifer’s not sinning would then have had no merit. Even for the angels it was necessary “to know how to want the Good” in order to continue to merit enjoying the vision of God, infinite Bliss!
Evil is a force that originated by itself like certain monstrous diseases in the most wholesome body. Lucifer was an angel, the most beautiful of all the angels, a perfect spirit, inferior only to God, and yet in his bright essence a vapor of pride arose, and using his free will, he chose to not scatter it. On the contrary, he condensed it by brooding over it, and evil was born of this incubation. It existed before man. God hurled him out of paradise, the cursed incubator of evil, who had desecrated paradise, but he is the eternal incubator of evil, and as he can no longer soil paradise, he has soiled the earth.
In summary, God did not create evil, it originated [by itself] in, was incubated by, and born from the will of one who was not “all love”: Lucifer, now Satan. And, even though evil exists now, it is not impossible to be good, and for Earth to be as it is Heaven, as it was for man in the beginning, until the first fell from Grace, of their own free will. Here evil existed before man, and after He created the first He forbade them from knowing it, yet despite everything, they still wanted to know, as it is to this day. Of course the Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man even existed, knew that man would be a thief and self-murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: Jesus, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.
[There’s much to unpack, so chew and digest this for now]
Would God have been able to hinder this deed? Yes. But, why violate the free will of the most beautiful, most intelligent archangel? Would not He Himself, the Most Just, then have put disorder into His own ordered Thought, by no longer wanting what He had previously wanted: that is, the freedom of the archangel? God does not oppress a troubled spirit in order violently to place it in the impossibility of sinning. Lucifer’s not sinning would then have had no merit. Even for the angels it was necessary “to know how to want the Good” in order to continue to merit enjoying the vision of God, infinite Bliss!
Evil is a force that originated by itself like certain monstrous diseases in the most wholesome body. Lucifer was an angel, the most beautiful of all the angels, a perfect spirit, inferior only to God, and yet in his bright essence a vapor of pride arose, and using his free will, he chose to not scatter it. On the contrary, he condensed it by brooding over it, and evil was born of this incubation. It existed before man. God hurled him out of paradise, the cursed incubator of evil, who had desecrated paradise, but he is the eternal incubator of evil, and as he can no longer soil paradise, he has soiled the earth.
In summary, God did not create evil, it originated [by itself] in, was incubated by, and born from the will of one who was not “all love”: Lucifer, now Satan. And, even though evil exists now, it is not impossible to be good, and for Earth to be as it is Heaven, as it was for man in the beginning, until the first fell from Grace, of their own free will. Here evil existed before man, and after He created the first He forbade them from knowing it, yet despite everything, they still wanted to know, as it is to this day. Of course the Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man even existed, knew that man would be a thief and self-murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: Jesus, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.
[There’s much to unpack, so chew and digest this for now]
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Lunam_Meam
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God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be: the eternal present.
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