Free will? I dont think so

[lelinator]

God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be: the eternal present.

Exactly my point.

God’s existence would seem to entail the existence of both space and time. Take them away, and God ceases to exist. There’s no such thing as outside of space and time. God’s existence can encompass all of space and time, but He can’t exist outside of space and time.

Now if God can’t exist without space and time, then He can’t be the cause of space and time, because that would entail Him being the cause of Himself.

 

[goout]

Lunam_Meam:

God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be: the eternal present.

Exactly my point.

God’s existence would seem to entail the existence of both space and time. Take them away, and God ceases to exist. There’s no such thing as outside of space and time. God’s existence can encompass all of space and time, but He can’t exist outside of space and time.

Now if God can’t exist without space and time, then He can’t be the cause of space and time, because that would entail Him being the cause of Himself.

False assumption: God can’t exist outside of space and time.
Space and time are creations, and God is uncreated.

 

[catholicray]

Late to the party but God knows your free will decisions before you have made those decisions. You are given opportunity to make your own decisions for sure and you determine your destiny. Just because God knows your destiny before you choose it does not mean that He has forced you to choose your destiny.

Knowing what you will choose and impacting your choice are two separate things. God knows your choices before you make them but has not created you within a framework where He has dictated those choices.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

If God had said thou shalt not do such and such but there was no such and such not to do then what meaning would it have?

Funnily enough, while God’s commandments do have meaning, your beliefs do not allow for it, at least of any substance. To clarify, for example, scripture speaks of judgement day, where God will separate the sheep from the goats. These animals represent those who were and were not faithful in obeying His commandments, and each group will be rewarded or punished for their deeds. When we integrate this with your belief God created and controls everything, which includes humans, it renders the commandments, and other content in scripture, to be of no meaning of substance, as well as unnecessary, because He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say. Before I continue, do you agree He could have done that?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

…because He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say. Before I continue, do you agree He could have done that?

I’ve actually debated this question previously. I think with Gorgias. I doubt to his satisfaction. My original thoughts on this matter were “Why couldn’t he have made us perfected to begin with if that were the goal?”

So, you agree?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Do you actually read and try to understand what I present for consideration in these posts?
I’ve offered some things I see as problematic in simply assuming that God couldn’t have created us in a state he wishes we were in from the get go. Do you see why it is problematic? I’ve discussed this earlier in this thread so if not, I’ve done the work for you and found some of the relevant posts. Look them over if you wish and get back to me on what you think.

Post #'s : 500,502,504,505,507,509,536,556,558,561-563,565,566,620,622-624,631,632,651,655,657,700-702,730,731,816-818. There is plenty there to think about.

I’ll get to that.

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

…because He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say. Before I continue, do you agree He could have done that?

I’ve actually debated this question previously. I think with Gorgias. I doubt to his satisfaction. My original thoughts on this matter were “Why couldn’t he have made us perfected to begin with if that were the goal?”

So, you agree?

?? I agree that the question is legitimate.

I did not ask if you agree it is a legitimate question. I asked: Do you agree God could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say?

A “yes” or “no” answer is all that is required.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

…because He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say. Before I continue, do you agree He could have done that?

I’ve actually debated this question previously. I think with Gorgias. I doubt to his satisfaction. My original thoughts on this matter were “Why couldn’t he have made us perfected to begin with if that were the goal?”

So, you agree?

?? I agree that the question is legitimate.

I did not ask if you agree it is a legitimate question. I asked: Do you agree God could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say?

A “yes” or “no” answer is all that is required.

I cannot at this time answer yes or no since I have not formed a positive opinion on this issue yet. Perhaps you can be the one to do so and push me to a yes or no belief.

You have stated God is all-powerful. So, is your answer “yes” or “no”?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

…because He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say. Before I continue, do you agree He could have done that?

I’ve actually debated this question previously. I think with Gorgias. I doubt to his satisfaction. My original thoughts on this matter were “Why couldn’t he have made us perfected to begin with if that were the goal?”

So, you agree?

?? I agree that the question is legitimate.

I did not ask if you agree it is a legitimate question. I asked: Do you agree God could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say?

A “yes” or “no” answer is all that is required.

I cannot at this time answer yes or no since I have not formed a positive opinion on this issue yet. Perhaps you can be the one to do so and push me to a yes or no belief.

You have stated God is all-powerful.

Cute. I have clarified this earlier with someone too. When we say God is all-powerful we cannot mean God can do anything. That concept quickly leads us into contradictory statements about God. What is meant is that God can do anything that is possible to do. Any act of God which leads into contradiction is not possible, ergo God cannot do everything. So, simply saying God is all-powerful does not automatically mean God could have created us however he wanted, case closed end of story.

With His power God has already created us how He wanted: controlled, according to you. So, do you agree God could have controlled us in the way I have described above?

 

[catholicray]

God creates the framework in which your choices are dictated due to Gods foreknowledge of creation.

This is where you make an error. Right at the beginning. God sees your free will choice and creates you within a framework that does not infringe on your choice. It’s as simple as that.

Whether you believe that or not is a moot point as this simply outlines the possibility of free will within a reality where God knows your choices before you make them.

The “point” is that free will is plausible within the given understanding of omniscience. Case closed. What you choose to believe is on you.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

…because He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say. Before I continue, do you agree He could have done that?

I’ve actually debated this question previously. I think with Gorgias. I doubt to his satisfaction. My original thoughts on this matter were “Why couldn’t he have made us perfected to begin with if that were the goal?”

So, you agree?

?? I agree that the question is legitimate.

I did not ask if you agree it is a legitimate question. I asked: Do you agree God could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say?

A “yes” or “no” answer is all that is required.

I cannot at this time answer yes or no since I have not formed a positive opinion on this issue yet. Perhaps you can be the one to do so and push me to a yes or no belief.

You have stated God is all-powerful.

Cute. I have clarified this earlier with someone too. When we say God is all-powerful we cannot mean God can do anything. That concept quickly leads us into contradictory statements about God. What is meant is that God can do anything that is possible to do. Any act of God which leads into contradiction is not possible, ergo God cannot do everything. So, simply saying God is all-powerful does not automatically mean God could have created us however he wanted, case closed end of story.

With His power God has already created us how He wanted: controlled, according to you. So, do you agree God could have controlled us in the way I have described above?

I cannot see at this time any other possibility. God created in accordance with his eternal foreknowledge. The very idea of the Christian God demands all things that exist or can exist be preordained within his will. Nothing can exist or be caused to exist outside of Gods foreknowledge of that existence which is the agent of all causes and effects. Is that what you would consider “controlling us”? If so then, yes, God not only controls every minutiae of creation, it is of necessity that he do so. Unless you can solve the enigmas proposed in this thread that seems to be the best answer.

So, do you agree He could have made some of us dwell in Heaven or Hell, or made us all dwell in Heaven the moment we were “actualized in reality”, as you say?

 

[Lunam_Meam]

@catholicray is wholly correct. @aitapyh, you are mostly incorrect.

God is eternal and omniscient. He has foreknowledge, but as He incessantly sees what was, is, and will be, everything is known in the eternal present. To say His eternal being is contingent upon man’s inability to freely choose is to not take into account the passive nature of His foreknowledge, and the understanding that the “eternal present” means everything that has, does, and will exist, exists simultaneously from His vantage point.

The Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man existed, knew that man would be a thief and self-murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: Jesus, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.

This is an indicator to man possessing a free will, because if we did not, the moment God breathed life, or the soul (Gen. 2:7), into the first man and thereon, God the Father could have forced souls to be good, and there would have been no need for Mary and Jesus. However, there is no merit in coercion.

Your beliefs are in support of a controlled existence, which do not allow for, nor align with what is known in scripture, e.g., merit, reward, and punishment, etc. Yet, as I and others have shown, you keep trying to fit a set of puzzle pieces into a framework where they don’t belong, because you think they must…somehow. Perhaps it is because you experienced a traumatic, unfathomable life-changing event, and in an attempt to find understanding and justification in it, you have driven yourself into believing this concept of a controlled existence?

 

[Latin]

According to Catholic theology Aitapyh is mostly correct, maybe not just only mostly.
.
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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Ibid. 6. 15: “If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.”
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: “What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.”
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Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.

.
The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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We are always all freely cooperating by virtue of God’s aided free will because:
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
.
God bless

 

[Latin]

… you have driven yourself into believing this concept of a controlled existence?

OUR EXISTENCE IS A CONTROLLED/ AIDED/ GOD GOVERNS OUR EXISTENCE, INCLUDES OUR WILLING AND ACTING.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit.,

Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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AS WE SEE ABOVE: GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED EVERY EVENT FROM ALL ETERNITY which events He tailor-made to everyone of us includes every angels, Satan, Judas, etc.

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OUR FATE/ DESTINY IS NOT IN US IT IS IN GOD.

For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
.
God bless

 

[catholicray]

All this informs us is that our good choices are the merit of God. None of this undermines free will. The Catholic Church does not teach irresistible grace (i.e. you can lose your salvation.) This only says your good “choices” are possible only with God. Case closed.

 

[Latin]

The Catholic Church vehemently rejects UNAIDED FREE WILL as follows:

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

.
The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.

(1) Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the predestined is unchangeable, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience. Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names.

Ante prævisa merita
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.

The Book of Life
God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which contains the names of all the elect and admits neither additions nor erasures.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
.
God bless

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

…as I and others have shown, you keep trying to fit a set of puzzle pieces into a framework where they do not belong, because you think they must…somehow. Perhaps it is because you experienced a traumatic, unfathomable life-changing event, and in an attempt to find understanding and justification in it, you have driven yourself into believing this concept of a controlled existence?

I agree…this world is traumatic overall. Who hasn’t experienced trauma?

How can you agree to what I did not say? And, I, for one, have not experienced trauma, but again, have you?

(2 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

@aitapyh,

God is eternal and omniscient. He has foreknowledge, but as He incessantly sees what was, is, and will be, everything is known in the eternal present. To say His eternal being is contingent upon man’s inability to freely choose is to not take into account the passive nature of His foreknowledge, and the understanding that the “eternal present” means everything that has, does, and will exist, exists simultaneously from His vantage point.

…continued.

What I mean by “everything is known in the eternal present” is as God is eternally omniscient He always has, is, and will incessantly see what was, is, and will be simultaneously. This is not to say creation existed eternally.

What I mean by “passive nature of His foreknowledge” is it is not an active measure in place by God to control man, or force us into a “template” in which He has forced our thoughts and actions. It is passive in that He “sees” all that was, is, and will be.

The Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man existed, knew that man would be a thief and self-murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: Jesus, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.

This indicates man possesses a free will, otherwise God could have forced His will on the soul of the first man, and thereon to only know and only be good, thus no need for Mary and Jesus, etc.

…continued.

I have gathered we agree God is capable of, but chose not to force His will on souls, in the manners in which I described above [see bolded], but you do believe God chose to force souls to know and be good and/or evil. However, there would be no merit if there were coercion, and scripture consists of teaching on, and examples of merit. Consider Mary and Jesus, for example:

“And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?” (Lk. 1:34)
“And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.” (Lk. 1:38)

“My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Matt. 26:39)

Despite Mary’s initial confusion, and Jesus’s fear in response to God’s will for them, in the end they submitted out of obedience of their own [free] will, and through this cooperation, merit was attained for mankind.

 

[Liguori]

How does God knowing what you will do affect what you will do?

 

[catholicray]

Yes, well the Catholic Church as an institution has taught many things that have since been considered wrong and a mistake

Wrong. If you understand how the Church teaches it has yet to make an error in teaching. You’re mixing the actions of its members with its teaching. Through the sin of its own members many evils have been done and proclaimed as truth under the banner of Catholicism. The blame belongs to us not the teaching. Conversation for another thread though.

You said it. And your bad choices. And any other choices you’re destined to make. Um…Case closed. Slamming gavel sound!

By this I see how well you have conversations with yourself. Good luck out there.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

aitapyh:

Lunam_Meam:

…as I and others have shown, you keep trying to fit a set of puzzle pieces into a framework where they do not belong, because you think they must… somehow. Perhaps it is because you experienced a traumatic, unfathomable life-changing event, and in an attempt to find understanding and justification in it, you have driven yourself into believing this concept of a controlled existence?

I agree…this world is traumatic overall. Who hasn’t experienced trauma?

How can you agree to what I did not say? And, I, for one, have not experienced trauma, but again, have you?

What possible fruit do you wish to gain from making this statement a battle? We really must pick the battles that deliver to us the best fruits for our labors. If this, out of everything else that was said in that post, is what you felt the need to lead with then I don’t know that we can ever have a productive conversation. I’m still willing to try but… I agreed for gosh sake that I have had traumatic events in my life.

I asked if you had experienced trauma, and initially you could have answered: “Yes, I have had trauma…”. Instead, you said you agreed the world is traumatic overall — even though I was not speaking generally — which is a statement that is not clear in whether or not that includes you. So, that is why I asked the questions I did, and thank you for finally answering clearly.

Now, if you are not comfortable discussing personal traumas, please say so. Otherwise, is there one traumatic event that stands out as having been the most difficult to cope with?