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BarbTh
Guest
I don’t think you have quoted me correctly? If I am wrong, my apologies.
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Babaganoush
Guest
That is a circular argument. You give the conclusion you want and then say that is guaranteed to happen. If it is already guaranteed then it can’t be changed. It is already past.
Additionally, from Gods perspective there isn’t change.
Additionally, from Gods perspective there isn’t change.
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Freddy
Guest
Exactly. If I can see the future then it’s fixed.
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GodIsPerfection
Guest
This is a VERY long thread!
Questions about “Why does God do this that or not do that?” display a lack of knowledge about God. GOD IS SOVEREIGN. He answers to no one!
God is omniscient, all-knowing. This means He KNOWS everything in the present tense (past, present, and future). So, God’s perspective is outside of human, linear time.
Although God knows us from before the foundation of the world, and predestines some to be adopted as children, by Jesus Christ, himself (Salvation), we are still subject to temptation in this world and free will has implications for our well-being in this world and in the afterlife (specifically, time to be spent in purgatory).
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Some are predestined to Salvation. Still, facing temptation and choosing rightly is an act of free will. Destiny and free will are not exclusive of each other. Having read a book on the topic of predestination some years ago, I remember it was explained that those predestined to Heaven may fall into sin occasionally, but God, in his grace will restore them to their proper, Heaven-bound, course. Still, they will face purgatory for improper acts of free will in this world. They might also suffer worldly maladies like a venereal disease in this world.
God does not wish for any souls to perish. Still, some are not predestined to Heaven “from before the foundation of the world.” If they lead righteous lives, and accept Jesus Christ, they will be saved. They are not condemned to hell, but must pass through purgatory en route to heaven.
Finally, there is a non-predestined group, who, by free will, sin repeatedly or continuously. They are not pre-condemned to hell. It is their own sinful acts of free will that finally condemn them to hell. This would include the rejection of Jesus Christ and his soul-saving commandments.
Of course, God, the Father KNOWS all of these things contemporaneously.
Questions about “Why does God do this that or not do that?” display a lack of knowledge about God. GOD IS SOVEREIGN. He answers to no one!
God is omniscient, all-knowing. This means He KNOWS everything in the present tense (past, present, and future). So, God’s perspective is outside of human, linear time.
Although God knows us from before the foundation of the world, and predestines some to be adopted as children, by Jesus Christ, himself (Salvation), we are still subject to temptation in this world and free will has implications for our well-being in this world and in the afterlife (specifically, time to be spent in purgatory).
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Some are predestined to Salvation. Still, facing temptation and choosing rightly is an act of free will. Destiny and free will are not exclusive of each other. Having read a book on the topic of predestination some years ago, I remember it was explained that those predestined to Heaven may fall into sin occasionally, but God, in his grace will restore them to their proper, Heaven-bound, course. Still, they will face purgatory for improper acts of free will in this world. They might also suffer worldly maladies like a venereal disease in this world.
God does not wish for any souls to perish. Still, some are not predestined to Heaven “from before the foundation of the world.” If they lead righteous lives, and accept Jesus Christ, they will be saved. They are not condemned to hell, but must pass through purgatory en route to heaven.
Finally, there is a non-predestined group, who, by free will, sin repeatedly or continuously. They are not pre-condemned to hell. It is their own sinful acts of free will that finally condemn them to hell. This would include the rejection of Jesus Christ and his soul-saving commandments.
Of course, God, the Father KNOWS all of these things contemporaneously.
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Latin
Guest
We have aided free wills as follows.
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Aided free will means, without knowing, God himself operates in our wills.
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.
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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit.,
God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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AS WE SEE ABOVE
In His training program God designed every obstacles down to its minutest details, and He also designed His aids for us down to its minutest details, the way He aides us that we all will able to overcome every our obstacles.
At the end of our training program on this earth, we all will be joyful saints in heaven.
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CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless
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Lunam_Meam
Guest
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Latin
Guest
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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Because we don’t know that God himself operates in our wills without forcing it, so we believe, we freely will and we freely do what we want to do by thinking, our wills originated only from ourselves.
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Is this explanation helpful?
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God bless
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Lunam_Meam
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There’s a difference between Him being the original cause of everything, so by cause and effect every action in the universe kind of started with Him, but because He started the Universe itself.Lunam_Meam:
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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Because we don’t know that God himself operates in our wills without forcing it, so we believe, we freely will and we freely do what we want to do by thinking, our wills originated only from ourselves.
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Is this explanation helpful?
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God bless
We have His natural and moral laws constantly exerting influence on us, but the choices we make based on those influences are all our own
And, His gift of Grace allowing us to reach perfection is not control either. Though He is working within us, His presence works in a more passive way, as we still have to choose to accept and capitalize on that Grace.
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Latin
Guest
WE HAVE NOTHING FROM OUR OWN, ALL THINGS WE HAVE, GOD’S WORK IN US AND HIS INFUSED GIFTS OF GRACES IN US.
Even our wills to develop, to grow and to be better every day, caused by His gifts of graces.
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1 Cor.4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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I perfectly understand you Lunam_Meam, the truth is: John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
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We don’t even have an atom what God did not infused into us.
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You said Lunam_Meam: “but the choices we make based on those influences are all our own.”
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They are not only “influences,” they are God’s gifts of graces, which graces enables and causes us to act and to develop and to grow.
All our choices, all our developments and grows in us is the works of God in us, these are not our own, these are all God’s work in us and His gifts of graces.
Even the smallest our cooperation with His graces, are caused by His graces.
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Yes, the natural and moral laws constantly exerting influence on us, and our wills to grow and to be better today then we were yesterday and to be better every day, caused by God’s gifts of graces and even our cooperation with His graces are caused by His Gifts of graces.
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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination
I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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Ibid. 6. 15: “If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.”
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: “What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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CCC 301 God does not abandon HIS CREATURES to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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God bless
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Lunam_Meam
Guest
@Latin, God gave us a free will, meaning the ability to act of our volition, and He gifts us with Grace, etc. The “influences” I spoke of are not just graces, it’s anything that can influence our will, which includes evil. Are you going to say evil also comes from God?? I doubt it.
And, He does help us. He tells us to call on Him for help. But, you take what is being said here and push it into control:
"De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it” . De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
As for “We don’t even have an atom what God did not infused into us.” Yep, He created us, lol. Now, it’s right to say without God I am nothing, but that isn’t saying “without God causing my action, I can DO nothing.”
God created the playing field, balls, bats, jersey’s, and even coached and trained us. However, we still have to go up to the plate, swing, and run the bases ourselves.
And, He does help us. He tells us to call on Him for help. But, you take what is being said here and push it into control:
"De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it” . De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
As for “We don’t even have an atom what God did not infused into us.” Yep, He created us, lol. Now, it’s right to say without God I am nothing, but that isn’t saying “without God causing my action, I can DO nothing.”
God created the playing field, balls, bats, jersey’s, and even coached and trained us. However, we still have to go up to the plate, swing, and run the bases ourselves.
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Latin
Guest
There are two types of free will, libertarian free will and aided free will.
LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL:
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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The Catholic Church vehemently rejects LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL as follows:
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
We are always all freely cooperating by virtue of God’s aided free will because:
CCC 308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
God bless
LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL:
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
.
The Catholic Church vehemently rejects LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL as follows:
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
.
The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
We are always all freely cooperating by virtue of God’s aided free will because:
CCC 308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
God bless
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Lunam_Meam
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We have a free will, and it can be influenced by what’s good and of God, as well as evil and of Satan. If one chooses to do what’s good and of God, then they, not God, accomplished resisting the temptation to do evil, but with His help.
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Latin
Guest
About the above subject, please Lunam_Meam read my above post 1211 and you will see who created the dramas of evil and sin in this world and for what reason.Latin:
We have a free will, and it can be influenced by what’s good and of God, as well as evil and of Satan. If one chooses to do what’s good and of God, then they, not God, accomplished resisting the temptation to do evil, but with His help.
God bless
L
Lunam_Meam
Guest
Evil is a force that originated by itself like a certain monstrous disease in the most wholesome body. Lucifer was an angel, the most beautiful of all the angels, a perfect spirit, inferior only to God, and yet in his bright essence a vapor of pride arose, and using his free will, he chose to not scatter it. On the contrary, he condensed it by brooding over it, and evil was born of this incubation. It existed before man. God hurled him out of paradise, the cursed incubator of evil, who had desecrated paradise, but he is the eternal incubator of evil, and as he can no longer soil paradise, he has soiled the earth.Lunam_Meam:
About the above subject, please Lunam_Meam read my above post 1211 and you will see who created the dramas of evil and sin in this world and for what reason.
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MNathaniel
Guest
With respect, I’ve literally never understood the line of thinking when people ask this question (and it’s so common).
God is outside of time; He created time. From outside of time, He sees every time all at once. You could look at it as, He sees everything as if it already happened in the past, if that helps you. He knows what choices you made because He watched you make them, past tense. Being watched doesn’t take away your free will. The watcher isn’t forcing you to choose Cheerios over Special K just because He’s silently present and watching while you make the choice, and knows what choice you made after you made it. If I watch you eat Cheerios, did I make you do it?
Usually we might speak of it as: “All moments are ‘present’ to God.” But if thinking of them as ‘past’ to Him also helps you…?
Also, if you’re confused because God also interacts with us (e.g. to give us graces)… no, I still don’t understand confusion on this point. God makes available to us the right graces at the right times, to accomplish His grander will — even when He knows (by observing us from outside of time) that we accept some graces and reject others. Giving us gifts and opportunities doesn’t void our will any more than watching us, though, so I still find this question (thankfully) baffling.
(I’m only thankful because God seems to have kept me free from whatever this mind trap is. I’m sorry for the people who are stuck in it, whatever it is. I hope something someone says here helps at least one person out of it.)
Edit: ooh is this related? Is someone thinking of God as a time traveller who keeps revisiting certain choice opportunities, but the person never makes a different one? Which makes them seem unfree to make a different one? But the reality is there’s only one reality; only one visit, to all places and times all at once. And God knows what’s happening because He’s observing what’s happening in real time… including observing, in real time, your free choice.
God is outside of time; He created time. From outside of time, He sees every time all at once. You could look at it as, He sees everything as if it already happened in the past, if that helps you. He knows what choices you made because He watched you make them, past tense. Being watched doesn’t take away your free will. The watcher isn’t forcing you to choose Cheerios over Special K just because He’s silently present and watching while you make the choice, and knows what choice you made after you made it. If I watch you eat Cheerios, did I make you do it?
Usually we might speak of it as: “All moments are ‘present’ to God.” But if thinking of them as ‘past’ to Him also helps you…?
Also, if you’re confused because God also interacts with us (e.g. to give us graces)… no, I still don’t understand confusion on this point. God makes available to us the right graces at the right times, to accomplish His grander will — even when He knows (by observing us from outside of time) that we accept some graces and reject others. Giving us gifts and opportunities doesn’t void our will any more than watching us, though, so I still find this question (thankfully) baffling.
(I’m only thankful because God seems to have kept me free from whatever this mind trap is. I’m sorry for the people who are stuck in it, whatever it is. I hope something someone says here helps at least one person out of it.)
Edit: ooh is this related? Is someone thinking of God as a time traveller who keeps revisiting certain choice opportunities, but the person never makes a different one? Which makes them seem unfree to make a different one? But the reality is there’s only one reality; only one visit, to all places and times all at once. And God knows what’s happening because He’s observing what’s happening in real time… including observing, in real time, your free choice.
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Lunam_Meam
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@aitapyh, in case you missed them, see my following replies to you: post 1198, 1199, and 1200.
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Lunam_Meam
Guest
Yes. God incessantly sees what was, is, and will be: eternal present.
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MNathaniel
Guest
I don’t know how to help you, friend. I honestly think you’re confused.
From calling God ‘it’, to suggesting you don’t see how the God who creates free will creatures can also watch those creatures make their free will choices…
I don’t mean that to sound condescending. I just honestly don’t know how to help, because to me there seems so clearly not a problem.
Maybe I’ll leave this thread for others who used to share this struggle, but got past it and can now show others that route.
From calling God ‘it’, to suggesting you don’t see how the God who creates free will creatures can also watch those creatures make their free will choices…
I don’t mean that to sound condescending. I just honestly don’t know how to help, because to me there seems so clearly not a problem.
Maybe I’ll leave this thread for others who used to share this struggle, but got past it and can now show others that route.
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MNathaniel
Guest
I deserve that for starting off with such patronizing comments myself. I apologize again, unreservedly.
About the rest of what you wrote, e.g. calling God ‘it’, assuming the only reason someone wouldn’t is that we think God has gender, etc… may I ask, are you Catholic?
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Lunam_Meam
Guest
Or, did you not miss them, but no longer wish to continue our discussion?
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