Free Will in the Westminster Confession of Faith

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Seriously?
You really have forgotten your Reformed theology, if you ever learned it.
I just learned to see it for what it is.
The Holy Spirit is the authority we turn to. And we do not regard Scripture as a dead book but as Living Word.
And there’s your problem. One - scripture might be “living” as a nice, poetic turn-of-phrase, but as a “legal” document by which you construct your faith, it is very much dead. It cannot be added to nor subtracted from. Like the late Scalia described the constitution, it is dead.

And the “Holy Spirit” defense.

I’ll be frank here. There are 1000s of other Christian groups that make the same claim as you. As such, you don’t get any particularly unique claim to the spirit. As such, this argument isn’t worth much. Because, again, why are you “right in the Spirit”, but the Oneness Pentecostals next door aren’t, despite making the same claim?
The Church flows from revelation, not revelation from the Church.
And here is where you make a terrible assumption.

Christ didn’t establish “writ”. He established a Church. It was the Church that produced our bible.

You’ve switched your horse and cart, here.
 
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You really don’t understand what I am saying. Sigh.

And you claim to have been a Calvinist, and even gone to seminary, but here
i just learned to see it for what it is.
 
You really don’t understand what I am saying. Sigh.

And you claim to have been a Calvinist, and even gone to seminary, but here
i just learned to see it for what it is.
I’m sympathetic to you. I really am.

I was zealous for it too, once upon a time. You’re just not in a place where you can understand a “post-Calvinist” without needing to discredit them somehow and that pretty clearly shows in the recent dialogue.

It’s just not the whole truth. It’s a half-truth - and a tightly woven one at that!

…which makes it all the harder to shed.
 
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You are not very good at the “I used to be a Calvinist” apologetic tactic. I suggest you abandon it.

I’m here more to discuss the differences between our faiths than to persuade or be persuaded, to find out where we agree and disagree, in pursuit of unity. You seem to be of the school that you are here to win arguments, often via insult - for example “shackles of Calvinism”.
 
You are not very good at the “I used to be a Calvinist” apologetic tactic. I suggest you abandon it.
I am what I am. I can be no other (to sorta steal from Luther).
You seem to be of the school that you are here to win arguments, often via insult - for example “shackles of Calvinism”.
“Insulting” ideas is a fundamental part of rational discourse. And if you’re going to do much of this, I energetically recommend that you learn to separate the man and his idea into separate entities as Aristotle suggests. Because that’s exactly what they are.

Beating up bad ideas is part of intellectual progress. It always has been. 🤷‍♂️
Plus, it’s fun.

As an addition, I guess I could use more “neutral” language. But it won’t have nearly as much of your intended effect as you think because there’s just no real pleasant way to tell someone that you think their idea is a bad one.
 
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No, in Catholicism salvation is about God’s initiation and our response to it. ‘Apart from Him we can do nothing’, to paraphrase John 15:5. God just doesn’t force, or won’t cause, us to say “yes”. That’s a ridiculous notion anyway that convolutes the Christian message.
 
The Holy Spirit is the authority we turn to.
I hear this comment quite often on this forum.

I was wondering how does one turn to the Holy Spirit for an authoritative interpretation of scripture?

How does one know the Holy Spirit has responded authoritateively?

How does one know that they were guided, by the Holy Spirit, to the truth and not just what they want to believe is the truth?

Thanks,

God Bless
 
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SojournerOnEarth:
The Holy Spirit is the authority we turn to.
I hear this comment quite often on this forum.

I was wondering how does one turn to the Holy Spirit for an authoritative interpretation of scripture?

How does one know the Holy Spirit has responded authoritateively?

How does one know that they were guided, by the Holy Spirit, to the truth and not just what they want to believe is the truth?

Thanks,

God Bless
God is the ultimate authority, right? As in self-authenticating authority? All other authority is less than His. The Church is less authoritative than God, correct? God is not authoritative because the Church says He is - it is the other way around, if at all.

There is the good old trust and obey, there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.

He expects us to work things out based on what He has revealed. Sometimes we find ambiguity, sometimes we are wrong in our analysis, sometimes we get it right. But typically Protestants do not claim infallibility. We walk by faith, not by infallible papal declarations (it takes faith to believe those, so you are just removing the epistemological problem one step anyway).
 
IOW, the doctrine of ‘regeneration first’ is a rather moot and academic point since we don’t have absolute certainty that we’re even regenerated to begin with! We must focus on and assess our actions after all, just like Matt 25:31-46 teaches.
 
The WCF says the will is free, not forced.
(From the Westminster Confession of Faith)
CHAPTER IX.

Of Free-Will.

God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
Bold added by myself. Just so readers have a fuller understanding of the WCF’s understanding of “free will”.
 
IOW, the doctrine of ‘regeneration first’ is a rather moot and academic point since we don’t have absolute certainty that we’re even regenerated to begin with! We must focus on and assess our actions after all, just like Matt 25:31-46 teaches.
It is not moot; it is of great comfort. It is worth while striving, rather than wondering if the striving is worth while. It brings meaning to life’s struggles. If you are going to struggle and go to hell, why bother? What is the point? Far easier to give up, drift, die and burn.
 
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SojournerOnEarth:
The WCF says the will is free, not forced.
(From the Westminster Confession of Faith)
CHAPTER IX.

Of Free-Will.

God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
Bold added by myself. Just so readers have a fuller understanding of the WCF’s understanding of “free will”.
Missing the point due to your misunderstanding and miscontruing it.
 
God is the ultimate authority, right? As in self-authenticating authority? All other authority is less than His. The Church is less authoritative than God, correct? God is not authoritative because the Church says He is - it is the other way around, if at all.
Yes. I agree God is not authoritative because the Church says He is, it is the other way around.

I’m not following you here? What does this have to do with my questions?
There is the good old trust and obey, there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.
Agree. Still don’t see how this answers my questions?
Sometimes we find ambiguity, sometimes we are wrong in our analysis, sometimes we get it right.
Sorry, still no answer. How do you know what you got right and what you got wrong?

Let’s try this again. Forget that I am a Catholic. This way your response doesn’t have to be about why you believe the Catholic Church can’t have the correct interpretation.

Pretend that you are talking to an atheist.

As an atheist my questions to you would still be the same…
I was wondering how does one turn to the Holy Spirit for an authoritative interpretation of scripture?

How does one know the Holy Spirit has responded authoritateively?

How does one know that they were guided, by the Holy Spirit, to the truth and not just what they want to believe is the truth?
No God Bless this time, because I’m and atheist remember. 😉
 
God is the ultimate authority, right? As in self-authenticating authority? All other authority is less than His. The Church is less authoritative than God, correct? God is not authoritative because the Church says He is - it is the other way around, if at all.
The Church is the medium through which God visibly reveals himself to the world. You commit an error by splitting them.
There is the good old trust and obey, there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.
Every Catholic just said “Amen”.
But typically Protestants do not claim infallibility. We walk by faith, not by infallible papal declarations (it takes faith to believe those, so you are just removing the epistemological problem one step anyway).
Infallible papal declarations are extremely rare, so to say that Catholics walk by infallible declaration would be less than correct.

We walk as part of the authoritative Church that Christ himself established for that very purpose.
 
No God Bless this time, because I’m and atheist remember. 😉
😄

I am not sure how to answer your question. Kinda fumbling.

It’s not what you know it’s Who you know? Does that help? If you know God, He will be the shepherd, He will lead you into all truth, because you trust Him to do so. He is the way and the truth and the life and no one can come to the Father except by Him. So the way you know God is true is by Jesus. You trust Him, because He is the truth. He said He is.
 
Missing the point due to your misunderstanding and miscontruing it.
Then the readers are going to REALLY think chapter three is going to misconstrue how to properly interpret the WCF on “free will”.
CHAPTER III.

Of God’s Eternal Decree.

God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.
 
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Sigh. It is a systematic theology, where each part informs the other. Not a series of independent statements, which you are trying to turn it into.

Do you know what a systematic theology is?
 
Sigh. It is a systematic theology, where each part informs the other. Not a series of independent statements, which you are trying to turn it into.

Do you know what a systematic theology is?
Yes. A protestant attempt at a catechism.

I still have my copy of Wayne Grudem’s.
 
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I am not sure how to answer your question. Kinda fumbling.
Confused? Do you mean you are fumbling or my responses were fumbling?
It’s not what you know it’s Who you know? Does that help? If you know God, He will be the shepherd, He will lead you into all truth, because you trust Him to do so. He is the way and the truth and the life and no one can come to the Father except by Him. So the way you know God is true is by Jesus. You trust Him, because He is the truth. He said He is.
Thanks. You gave the same answer given by every person that makes that claim. You believe you are guided by the Holy Spirit because you believe your interpretations of the Bible tell you this and are correct. And you know that your interpretations are correct because you believe you are guided by the Holy Spirit.

This is a circular argument, and the only reason you can make this claim is because you already know that the people you are talking to believe the Bible is the Word of God. That’s why I said pretend I am an atheist. If I were an atheist my next question to you would be What evidence do you have that you know God?
 
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