Free Will Is An Illusion

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This is why free will is an illusion:
“Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them.” (source: “Free Will” by Sam Harris)
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DanAl said:
Then harrsi’ words are determined or they are product of chance.
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Correct. Our decision-making process is either a completely deterministic one or it is not. If it is not, then some element of chance is at play. (Logic dictates this much.)
 
What I don’t understand is whether Harris is saying free will does or doesn’t exist?
 
hangnail said:
Why don’t you try to actually refute the argument instead of providing me with a link?
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What argument, the Harris quote? It’s not really much of an argument, it’s just an assertion. This is typically how the new atheist types (Harris is known as a “new atheist”) argue, just assert things with confidence. It’s a false dilemma and it begs the question for physicalism.

I’m sorry I thought you might be interested in what one of the most eminent philosophers of our time had to say on a book written by someone who has an undergraduate degree in philosophy (I think…).

If you don’t like to read this guy broke it down in a 10 minute video:

youtube.com/watch?v=xCwY36a19aQ
 
adawgj said:
What I don’t understand is whether Harris is saying free will does or doesn’t exist?
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I will speak for myself instead of Harris. God cannot hold us any more morally responsible for a choice that ultimately reduces to chance than for one that was completely predetermined and could not have been otherwise.
 
hangnail said:
This is why free will is an illusion:
“Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them.” (source: “Free Will” by Sam Harris)
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And they think we are the crazy ones? :confused:

If you and Sam Harris have no control over what you say or do, than why would I believe anything you tell me?

I would like to see atheists such as Dawkins and Harris follow their il-logical conclusions and write another book called ‘The Truth Delusion’ or ‘The End of Truth’ but I guess they wont because these would just debunk their previous books.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
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“Perfectly” free will is, to an extent, an illusion indeed.

The human will is as conditioned as the mind that directs it and the body that carries it out.

Perfect human freedom is a mirage, just like the perfect human body, or mind.

ICXC NIKA.
 
If causality is entirely deterministic, then yes, free will would probably be an illusion – but it’s not, or at least we have no good reason to believe that it is. Look at quantum mechanics.
 
I also find these kinds of arguments to be ignorant of the immateriality of the soul: human souls are not actually moved by any physical mechanism. The soul in a sense considers the circumstances with which it is presented and freely chooses to act in whichever way it will. It is not some marble getting hit by another marble. Spirits and souls are free agents, which in itself may even have something to do with some of the inherent randomness of quantum mechanics.
 
Estevao said:
What argument, the Harris quote? It’s not really much of an argument, it’s just an assertion. This is typically how the new atheist types (Harris is known as a “new atheist”) argue, just assert things with confidence. It’s a false dilemma and it begs the question for physicalism.
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I don’t believe Harris is a materialist. I’m certainly not.
Estevao said:
I’m sorry I thought you might be interested in what one of the most eminent philosophers of our time had to say on a book written by someone who has an undergraduate degree in philosophy (I think…).

If you don’t like to read this guy broke it down in a 10 minute video:

youtube.com/watch?v=xCwY36a19aQ
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I will take this as your way of conceding the point.
 
josh987654321 said:
And they think we are the crazy ones? :confused:

If you and Sam Harris have no control over what you say or do, than why would I believe anything you tell me?

I would like to see atheists such as Dawkins and Harris follow their il-logical conclusions and write another book called ‘The Truth Delusion’ or ‘The End of Truth’ but I guess they wont because these would just debunk their previous books.
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You haven’t furnish me with any kind of counterargument.
 
GEddie said:
“Perfectly” free will is, to an extent, an illusion indeed.

The human will is as conditioned as the mind that directs it and the body that carries it out.

Perfect human freedom is a mirage, just like the perfect human body, or mind.
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“Imperfect” free will is an illusion too.
 
ivebeenshown said:
If causality is entirely deterministic, then yes, free will would probably be an illusion – but it’s not, or at least we have no good reason to believe that it is. Look at quantum mechanics.
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Either determinism is true or indeterminism is true. There are no other options. (The standard interpretation of QM simply holds that nature is fundamentally indeterministic. i.e. quantum events are uncaused or random.)
 
hangnail said:
I don’t believe Harris is a materialist. I’m certainly not.

I will take this as your way of conceding the point.
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Nope, I’ll just quote Plantinga’s refutation of Harris’ argument which you quoted in the OP:
Alvin Plantinga:
It’s not at all clear to me why Harris devotes most of his energy to arguing that we don’t have maximal autonomy. But he does also declare that we don’t have freedom in the ordinary sense: “we know that determinism, in every sense relevant to human behavior, is true. Unconscious neural events determine our thoughts and actions—and are themselves determined by prior causes.” How do we know that? Harris puts it like this: “Either our wills * are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them.” Another way to put it: either I am determined to do what I do by prior causes, or I do what I do by chance. In the first case I clearly don’t have freedom. But the same holds in the second: if what I do happens just by chance, then too I don’t do it freely (if I can be said to do it at all), at least not in a way which implies that I am responsible for that action.

This is a familiar argument, and one with a long history. But is it a good argument? I don’t think so. Why think that if it is within my power to perform an action, but also within my power to refrain from so doing, then what I do happens just by chance? Maybe I have a good reason for doing what I do on that occasion—then it wouldn’t be just by chance that I do it. Last Sunday you contributed money to your church; no doubt on that occasion it was within your power to refrain from contributing. But it surely wasn’t just by chance that you made that contribution. It isn’t as if you just flipped a coin: “Heads, I’ll contribute; tails, I won’t.” No; you had a good reason for contributing: you want to promote the good things your church does. We Christians think God freely arranged the whole marvelous scheme of Incarnation and Atonement, whereby we sinners can once more be in a proper relationship with God. God did this, and did it freely; it was within his power to refrain from so doing, thus leaving us in our sins. But it surely doesn’t follow that he did it just by chance!*

booksandculture.com/articles/2013/janfeb/bait-and-switch.html?paging=off
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ivebeenshown said:
I also find these kinds of arguments to be ignorant of the immateriality of the soul: human souls are not actually moved by any physical mechanism. The soul in a sense considers the circumstances with which it is presented and freely chooses to act in whichever way it will. It is not some marble getting hit by another marble. Spirits and souls are free agents, which in itself may even have something to do with some of the inherent randomness of quantum mechanics.
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Atheistic materialism is not the only form of determinism. Dualism or idealism can also be deterministic.
 
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