P
Peter_Plato
Guest
Que sera, sera? :ehh:
Hmmm….never thought of that.
That causes me to think that you MUST be right.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Hmmm….never thought of that.
That causes me to think that you MUST be right.
D
davidv
Guest
Yes. This you have repeated a number of times. But, it remains a bare assertion.Our choice to do “good” (or whatever our choice may be) was either completely predetermined or (at least) partially the result of chance. It’s that simple.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
The fallacy here is the implication that all biological processes can be explained fully by the physical causal nexus.You are embedded in a physical causal (and ultimately divine causal) nexus.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
I would agree that our choices are partially the result of chance in the sense that in many cases we do not choose what our choices will be. What the poor man has to choose from will be different from the choices presented to the rich man. Whether we are born rich or poor is not determined by us. In some sense it is determined by a biological process, but to the poor man it will seem like a matter of being unlucky that he was born into poverty, whereas others had the good luck to be born into wealth. Why is one child born in poverty in Rwanda, whereas another child is born into a family of wealthy Swiss bankers?Our choice to do “good” (or whatever our choice may be) was either completely predetermined or (at least) partially the result of chance. It’s that simple.
H
hangnail
Guest
Because you’re either living a sinless life or you’re not. And if you’re not, then you’re not in control. The fact is that you’re not free, but a slave to sin.Why must it be either/or and not both/and?
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Romans 7:18-20
T
tonyrey
Guest
There is a difference between being in control and being in complete control… Free will is subject to limitations of knowledge, power and circumstances.Well, If you believe that you’re are in control, then why do you have to ask God for help in order to stop sinning? Somebody’s who’s in control shouldn’t have to plead with God. If you’re truly in control, then you should be able to live a sinless life.
T
tonyrey
Guest
How about self-determined beliefs? Otherwise all the law courts in the world are based on the false assumption that we are sometimes the cause of our actions and decisions…I believe I am. And no one here has furnished me with a counterargument that would me to believe otherwise.
There are variety of factors (both external and internal) which determine our beliefs. But every belief we hold was ultimately formed by a completely deterministic process or a partially indeterministic one. I believe this to be true because logic tells me that it is.
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
Perhaps your choice is in the endless permutations that exist between the two?Because you’re either living a sinless life or you’re not. And if you’re not, then you’re not in control. The fact is that you’re not free, but a slave to sin.
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Romans 7:18-20
A
Amandil
Guest
This sorely begs the question. You cannot possibly know this with any certainty unless you already know with certainty what your ultimate fate or destiny already is: I.e. you must have some ability to see into the future.Our ultimate fate or destiny. We believe that we are in control of our ultimate fate or destiny. But we are not. It’s an illusion. We are not in control. And never have been.
You don’t. Therefore your argument fails.
Aquinas spelled out very succinctly and specifically what free will actually is. And his definition makes a heck of a lot more sense than yours. And it’s your definition which is the cause of the failure of the rest of your argument. Good definitions are the foundation of any argument, without them they crumble.Well, if Aquinas has already refuted the argument I am making in the OP of this thread, then please share it with us.
H
hangnail
Guest
If I were completely free of external influences then free will might be compatible with my self-determinism. (I say “might” because I would not necessarily be free to do whatever I will.)Ah, yes. But it seems you have already articulated the fact that if a person is totally in control then the outcome must be ‘determined’ by them so they would not be acting free of determination, either, since they themselves were the determining cause.
I find this to be inherently self-contradictory.Your free choice, in other words, is to avail yourself of grace by a simple free choice which means the choice was not determined by your will, nor anything integral to you, nor from any inevitable external forces, but simply by the possibility existing to choose dynamically, despite all determiners, by God underwriting your freedom to choose…
H
hangnail
Guest
I do not make any such assumption.The fallacy here is the implication that all biological processes can be explained fully by the physical causal nexus.
H
hangnail
Guest
That’s a good question. But it’s a subject for another thread.I would agree that our choices are partially the result of chance in the sense that in many cases we do not choose what our choices will be. What the poor man has to choose from will be different from the choices presented to the rich man. Whether we are born rich or poor is not determined by us. In some sense it is determined by a biological process, but to the poor man it will seem like a matter of being unlucky that he was born into poverty, whereas others had the good luck to be born into wealth. Why is one child born in poverty in Rwanda, whereas another child is born into a family of wealthy Swiss bankers?
A
Amandil
Guest
I knew that I’d see it sooner or later…If I were completely free of external influences then free will might be compatible with my self-determinism. (I say “might” because I would not necessarily be free to do whatever I will.)
“Freedom” is not the state of being free from external influences.
You’re not arguing freedom, or liberty, but license.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Here’s what you wrote:I do not make any such assumption.
You are embedded in a physical causal (and ultimately divine causal) nexus.
H
hangnail
Guest
Al of which are completely predetermined or reducible (at least) partially to chance.There is a difference between being in control and being in complete control… Free will is subject to limitations of knowledge, power and circumstances.
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
Why would that be?If I were completely free of external influences then free will might be compatible with my self-determinism. (I say “might” because I would not necessarily be free to do whatever I will.)
I find this to be inherently self-contradictory.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
I thought that this thread was on the topic of free will which involves choosing between different alternatives.But it’s a subject for another thread.
V
venerablejohn
Guest
But we are not saved by our works, indeed my parish priest called that idea a heresy from his pulpit. We are saved by accepting Jesus as our Lord and saviour. Our actions should reflect our faith not the other way round. As for free will, we cannot have total control of our destiny, how can we explain Judas’ role in the betrayal of Jesus? An event Jesus foretold.With rare exceptions, those who believe free will is an illusion have already presupposed that there is no God who can confer upon us a spirit that is not entirely subject in the moral realm to predetermined physical impulses. So moral and psychological determinism are almost always rooted in atheism, and Sam Harris certainly qualifies as an atheist.
But if you are a theist, and in particular a Judeo-Christian theist, you have no choice but to believe in free will since God holds us accountable with rewards and punishments for our choices. This was so with Adam and Eve, when God gave them a choice. It was so with Cain when God urged Cain to choose the life, rather than the death , of Abel.
The free will choice to obey or disobey the will of God is the paramount moral lesson of Genesis.
H
hangnail
Guest
If a computer program has a logical glitch in it, do you blame the program or the programmer? (The program may produce bad output data. So, it is responsible in one sense. But is it really morally responsible? I don’t think so. But I would still attempt to reprogram it and fix the problem.)How about self-determined beliefs? Otherwise all the law courts in the world are based on the false assumption that we are sometimes the cause of our actions and decisions…
T
Tomdstone
Guest
This is arguable and appears to be contrary to Matthew 25:31-46But we are not saved by our works, indeed my parish priest called that idea a heresy from his pulpit.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
- Status
- Not open for further replies.