Free Will: Maybe I've been wrong all these years

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A recurring question finally came to a head while discussing theology with one of my Theol 101 students. She said, and I hear this in one way or another about every semester, "“When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and gained free will…” My puzzled look must have distracted her and so she paused. I asked, “are you saying that the fall of mankind gained us free will? Where did you learned that?” “It came from our core course for Freshmen.” “Hmm…” said I, “Who taught you this?”

If this thread gets off the ground I’ll share more information but my question is essentially this. I have believed and taught all my life that one aspect of our image of God is “free will”. This we lost when we died as a consequence of our rebellion. I.e., we lost free will when we disobeyed. The effects of original sin is that we no longer have access to eternal life. We no longer have a choice. Redemption, the Harrowing of Hell, is done at least in part to regain our free will.

If I am wrong and this college professor is right then what is the point of Christianity? http://forums.catholic-convert.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif

CDL
 
GregoryPalamas said:
A recurring question finally came to a head while discussing theology with one of my Theol 101 students. She said, and I hear this in one way or another about every semester, "“When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and gained free will…” My puzzled look must have distracted her and so she paused. I asked, “are you saying that the fall of mankind gained us free will? Where did you learned that?” “It came from our core course for Freshmen.” “Hmm…” said I, “Who taught you this?”

If this thread gets off the ground I’ll share more information but my question is essentially this. I have believed and taught all my life that one aspect of our image of God is “free will”. This we lost when we died as a consequence of our rebellion. I.e., we lost free will when we disobeyed. The effects of original sin is that we no longer have access to eternal life. We no longer have a choice. Redemption, the Harrowing of Hell, is done at least in part to regain our free will.

If I am wrong and this college professor is right then what is the point of Christianity? http://forums.catholic-convert.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif

CDL
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Hmmm… I was under the impression that Adam was created in the image of God (this included the ability to make independent decisions - IE. - Freewill). Adam and Eve had free will and used that free will to disobey and eat of the forbidden fruit. There were penalties for their disobedience; however, mankind did not lose free will. If we had, we would not be accountable for our sins, our good works, or anything else. We would simply have no choice in the matter. Instead, original sin caused a tainting of the soul. This is why each individual has original sin at his/her conception.
I don’t know whether or not this helps. It’s only 6am and I haven’t been to bed yet. Perhaps I can come back later (after sleep) and try again. :yawn: God bless.
 
GregoryPalamas said:
A recurring question finally came to a head while discussing theology with one of my Theol 101 students. She said, and I hear this in one way or another about every semester, "“When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and gained free will…” My puzzled look must have distracted her and so she paused. I asked, “are you saying that the fall of mankind gained us free will? Where did you learned that?” “It came from our core course for Freshmen.” “Hmm…” said I, “Who taught you this?”

If this thread gets off the ground I’ll share more information but my question is essentially this. I have believed and taught all my life that one aspect of our image of God is “free will”. This we lost when we died as a consequence of our rebellion. I.e., we lost free will when we disobeyed. The effects of original sin is that we no longer have access to eternal life. We no longer have a choice. Redemption, the Harrowing of Hell, is done at least in part to regain our free will.

If I am wrong and this college professor is right then what is the point of Christianity? http://forums.catholic-convert.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif

CDL
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Actually I don’t agree with you. We have not lost free will. We do have a choice. We have free will to choose to reject God’s love and go to Hell (if in a state of mortal sin at death) or to accept God’s love and be saved (if in a state of grace at death).

By the way, baptism ERASES original sin (and personal sin).
 
We were born with free will, still have it. Adam and Eve were created with free will and kept it.
 
thistle said:
Actually I don’t agree with you. We have not lost free will. We do have a choice. We have free will to choose to reject God’s love and go to Hell (if in a state of mortal sin at death) or to accept God’s love and be saved (if in a state of grace at death).

By the way, baptism ERASES original sin (and personal sin).
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Yes, I overstated the case. Still, my point is if humanity was not damaged and in effect if humanity did not need intervention to restore the image of God why did Christ come? That’s my point. We gained death and a sense of sin and loss of some portion of free will or a damaging of free will. We regained it upon Christ redemption of us. If you totally disagree with that, if in fact the fall was a capturing of free will by us on our behalf then please explain why Christ came.

CDL
 
We have had Free Will since Adam and Eve, Before the fall. Free Will does not equal full and complete understanding though.

God set up the original boundaries of what knowledge and understanding our First Parents had, and it was within that frame work that they had Free Will. When the fall happened, their knowledge grew but with that, they brought death into the world.
 
love4mary said:
We have had Free Will since Adam and Eve, Before the fall. Free Will does not equal full and complete understanding though.

God set up the original boundaries of what knowledge and understanding our First Parents had, and it was within that frame work that they had Free Will. When the fall happened, their knowledge grew but with that, they brought death into the world.
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I don’t think I agree with this. Why would “more” knowledge bring death? Did we not have a potentially infinite knowledge prior to the fall? God would indeed be a petty tyrant if he was withholding knowledge and then tempting us with it.

CDL
 
That makes no sense at all. Are parents petty tyrants because they don’t give their one year old college course on metaphysics? Are they “tempting” the kids with knowledge they couldn’t possibly understand and fully grasp at their stage of development? The tress was supposed to be the knowledge of good and evil. Are you saying it was a bad thing for God to want us to not even know what evil was? to only know good all our lives? sure sounds liek a good thing to me. As a parent I sure wish my kids didnt’ ever have to be exposed to the things i hear on the news every day.

BTW knowledge didn’t bring death, disobedience did.
 
Free will allowed Adam/Eve to make bad choice … disobedience of God’s instructions. Sin (willful disobedience of God) was sown into mankind’s genetics. A mutation to our DNA and spirits … which is genetically transfered to all offspring as original sin.

Christ came to cleanse our Spirits/Bodies of original sins via Baptism into the Trinity … and via rebirths in H.S. we gain Christ within us. Only the perfect sacrifice for our sin / Christ … can restore our mutated body/spirit natures thru a spritual rebirth.

We still have Free Will, but we must yield our will to God’s.
Christ tells us we must 'die to ourselves … unless a seed dies it cannot grow to fruitfulness.
 
A recurring question finally came to a head while discussing theology with one of my Theol 101 students.
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Are you teaching in a Catholic college? :confused:
 
TAS2000 said:
That makes no sense at all. Are parents petty tyrants because they don’t give their one year old college course on metaphysics? Are they “tempting” the kids with knowledge they couldn’t possibly understand and fully grasp at their stage of development? The tress was supposed to be the knowledge of good and evil. Are you saying it was a bad thing for God to want us to not even know what evil was? to only know good all our lives? sure sounds liek a good thing to me. As a parent I sure wish my kids didnt’ ever have to be exposed to the things i hear on the news every day.

BTW knowledge didn’t bring death, disobedience did.
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I believe the source of this nonsensicle view of the fall is the Enlightenment hatred for the Church. One can see it on display in many Protestant groups. But this particular perversion of the truth comes from non Christian sources.

CDL
 
GregoryPalamas said:
I believe the source of this nonsensicle view of the fall is the Enlightenment hatred for the Church. One can see it on display in many Protestant groups. But this particular perversion of the truth comes from non Christian sources.

CDL
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Ok, I have no idea what you mean here. Can you explain more verbosely?
 
It was free will that permitted Adam and Eve to choose to disobey. After the fall, they still had free will, but because of sin it was harder for them to use because of all the baggage that comes with sin.

Take for example a wife beater, odds are his father was beater and his grandfather before him, because abuse is a learned behavior. Now he doesn’t want to beat his wife, he wants to use his free will to choose not to beat her, but it is a lot harder for him to exercise that free will because of all the mental and emotional garbage that gets in the way of his free will. (a poor explanation, but you see where I’m going.)
 
TAS2000 said:
Ok, I have no idea what you mean here. Can you explain more verbosely?
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Many non-catholic groups exist only because they oppose the Church. They have no other reason for existence.

The secular mindset particularly hates the Church because it stands in the way of the absolute authority they so desire. If they can convince the world that rebellion against God actually brings free will into ones life it is in their minds rebellion against the Church. Did not the serpent tempt Eve by accusing God of precisely what it wished to do? When in truth freedom only exists when one is in union with God. To rebel against God is to put oneself into slavery.

CDL
 
Infallible definitions from the Council of Trent:
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
Free will was weakened and without grace could not rise to performing supernaturally good works (God pleasing). Fallen man has the ability to do naturally good works (but these do not build our relationship with God) or chose to sin. Only sin displeases God and can lead to punishment.
 
GregoryPalamas said:
Yes, I overstated the case. Still, my point is if humanity was not damaged and in effect if humanity did not need intervention to restore the image of God why did Christ come? That’s my point. We gained death and a sense of sin and loss of some portion of free will or a damaging of free will. We regained it upon Christ redemption of us. If you totally disagree with that, if in fact the fall was a capturing of free will by us on our behalf then please explain why Christ came.

CDL
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What was lost at the fall of Adam and Eve was sanctifying grace, not free will.

That is why the Incarnation took place.
 
GregoryPalamas said:
I have believed and taught all my life that one aspect of our image of God is “free will”. This we lost when we died as a consequence of our rebellion. I.e., we lost free will when we disobeyed. The effects of original sin is that we no longer have access to eternal life. We no longer have a choice. Redemption, the Harrowing of Hell, is done at least in part to regain our free will.
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Gregory,

This sounds close to an Augustinian/Anselmian (and later, Calvinist; Calvin was heavily influenced by St. Augustine) theological understanding, which is very roughly thus: Our first parents had free will – to choose good or evil – but Original Sin screwed it all up for humanity. After the Fall, men were basically depraved, their wills always determined toward evil ultimately. In this sense the Fall really was a fall from grace – it made humanity bad. Men no longer possessed the power (freedom) to do the Will of God (goodness).

Now, with the coming of Christ man was given a gift: the chance to overcome this sick state and regain his freedom. Whereas before men were quite truly “slaves to sin,” Christ made it possible that we might have the shackles of sin taken off of us. (Note that “freedom” in the Augustinian/Anselmian sense is simply the ability to conform our wills to the Will of God.) This gift is also truly a gift: men could not have done it by themselves. Even when an individual man who has been “saved” by Christ subsequently falls into mortal sin, it is no thanks at all to that man if/when he manages to make it to Confession and return to God’s graces: in a state of mortal sin, he has no control, no freedom to hoist himself out of it. Rather, it is God Who again freely grants this man the gift of grace necessary to will to reconcile himself to God. (There is some bleakness here, and this is that God might not ever do this. Once in mortal sin, you truly will be stuck there if God doesn’t save you once again. God does not have to do anything. God doesn’t need you.)

Anyway, this was the basic theological understanding of the Church on the matter before the Aristotelian revolution in the 13th century, in particular, the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas, which clarified many things regarding the Fall and freedom. That theology, our theology, is reflected in the Catechism.
 
GregoryPalamas said:
A recurring question finally came to a head while discussing theology with one of my Theol 101 students. She said, and I hear this in one way or another about every semester, "“When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and gained free will…” My puzzled look must have distracted her and so she paused. I asked, “are you saying that the fall of mankind gained us free will? Where did you learned that?” “It came from our core course for Freshmen.” “Hmm…” said I, “Who taught you this?”
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Whoever taught her that “Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and GAINED free will” is confused about the position of the Catholic Church (the pre-Thomistic and post-Thomistic). NOBODY taught or teaches that Adam and Eve GAINED free will by Original Sin! It was either a loss or a weakening.
 
Adam and Eve’s original sin was disobedience, eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, gave us free will so that we could freely choose to love and serve him. Some people reject God through sin, and, in so doing, choose for themselves to spend eternity without knowing Him, which is Hell.

How can a Catholic college not be teaching something as basic as free will and original sin correctly?

Where is Sister Mary Magdalene, the Baltimore Catechism, and the ruler when you need them?

Q. 262. Why do we say our will was weakened?
A. We say our will was weakened to show that our free will was not entirely taken away by Adam’s sin, and that we have it still in our power to use our free will in doing good or evil.
Baltimore Catechism 3 LESSON FIFTH: On our First Parents and the Fall
 
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