Free Will: Maybe I've been wrong all these years

[Texas_Roofer]

They could rebel against God and the Truth and eaten of the tree and caused their own deaths. Which of course is the option they chose. It so dis-ordered the world that their ability to choose after that was severely hampered. Freedom is harmony with Truth. Death is not freedom.

CDL

you have lost me “their ability to choose after that was severely hampered.” severely hampered or gone?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

you have lost me “their ability to choose after that was severely hampered.” severely hampered or gone?

It’s now much more difficult to discern the truth.

BTW Where are this series of questions going?

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

“We’re here, we’re queer, get used to it!”
Smith College, Northampton, MA - April 29, 2008
Dozens of lesbian activists at Smith College climbed in through windows and stormed the podium in a riot scene shortly after Ryan Sorba began a speech on his upcoming book, The Born Gay Hoax. The melee forced an end to the speech before a packed hall in the library on the Northampton campus. Uniformed police officers and a plainclothes security guard were in the room but mostly just stood and watched. Rather than take action against the rioters, the officers and a university official walked to the podium and ordered Sorba to leave the room “for his own safety.”

There were no arrests and no charges of disorderly conduct. This would seem to be a clear violation of the Massachusetts’ Civil Rights statutes.

Here’s our exclusive footage:

massresistance.org/docs/g…329/index.html

From another thread on this very forum. Freedom means license to lie and license to block everyone elses’ freedom. The Pope defined freedom as “alignment with truth.” We can still choose truth but are blocked in many ways.

CDL

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Since Adam was to protect Eve where the heck was he was his beloved spouse was being tempted? Then look at how he pointed fingers after he succumbed to the same temptation. He not only blamed his wife but he blamed God for his fall.

Your point about finger pointing and blame is most astute.

Blaming is the rejection of personal responsibility. Adam blamed his wife (it wasn’t my fault, the woman YOU gave me . . .) Eve blamed the serpent (it wasn’t my fault, the serpent YOU created . . . )

The failure to take responsibility is a rejection of our free will. It is saying that we had no choice, that it wasn’t our fault, that the devil made us do it. And if it wasn’t our fault then no sin is attributable to us for the act. No sin, no judgement, no punishment.

The world cannot allow free will to exist because it demands we take responsibility and pay the piper.

Now I will grant that we have baggage that may diminish our ability to genuinely exercise our free will, but it is imperative that Catholics recognize that although damaged free will does exist and we must reject the world’s philosophy that it doesn’t.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… one aspect of our image of God is “free will”. This we lost when we died as a consequence of our rebellion. I.e., we lost free will when we disobeyed. …CDL

you define free will as

The ability to remain in intimacy with God or to turn our back upon Him.
CDL

You seem to claim free will only existed for Adam & Eve, but none of us

I’d guess it depends upon what is meant by “full”. They walked and talked with God in the cool of the day. They were naked before God. They knew Him but did not possess the knowledge of good and evil.

CDL

yet the idea of God having control in the garden seems to trouble you(?)

I do not know. I would suppose that they freely chose it since free will was part of their nature.

now it seems you transition? if free will is man controlled, then man would have to control the intimacy with God in the garden! If God controlled then man would have no way to know what was “intimacy” unless man not God had superior knowledge

They could rebel against God and the Truth and eaten of the tree and caused their own deaths. Which of course is the option they chose. It so dis-ordered the world that their ability to choose after that was severely hampered. Freedom is harmony with Truth. Death is not freedom.

CDL

why would this have any affect on free will?

It’s now much more difficult to discern the truth.

I am asking you to provide a logical flow to support the claim modern humans do not have access to free will, or that free will is “intimacy with god”

BTW Where are this series of questions going?

CDL

 

[vern_humphrey]

Your point about finger pointing and blame is most astute.

Blaming is the rejection of personal responsibility. Adam blamed his wife (it wasn’t my fault, the woman YOU gave me . . .) Eve blamed the serpent (it wasn’t my fault, the serpent YOU created . . . )

The failure to take responsibility is a rejection of our free will. It is saying that we had no choice, that it wasn’t our fault, that the devil made us do it. And if it wasn’t our fault then no sin is attributable to us for the act. No sin, no judgement, no punishment.

The world cannot allow free will to exist because it demands we take responsibility and pay the piper.

Now I will grant that we have baggage that may diminish our ability to genuinely exercise our free will, but it is imperative that Catholics recognize that although damaged free will does exist and we must reject the world’s philosophy that it doesn’t.

That’s ingrained in our society. Not so long ago, I had someone tell me that alcoholics and drug addicts “can’t be blamed” for what they do. And they really got angry when I pointed out no one is an alcoholic before he takes his first drink. No one is a drug addict before he takes his first hit.

With attitudes like this we have created an underclass of people who now believe they can’t make it on their own, so why try?

 

[Jimdandy]

Just an aside… The Incarnation did not only take place because of the Fall. Jesus was to become man and Head of the human race with or without it.

If first man committed no sin, why would Jesus have to be born, die, and then rise? God knew man would fail and then sin and because of that Jesus was already committed to saving us.

I do not understand you statement .Would you expound, please?

 

[Jimdandy]

Just an aside… The Incarnation did not only take place because of the Fall. Jesus was to become man and Head of the human race with or without it.

If first man had not committed sin why would Jesus have to be born, die, and then rise? God knew man would fail and then sin and because of that Jesus was already committed to saving us.

I do not understand you statement .Would you expound, please?

 

[Jimdandy]

Just an aside… The Incarnation did not only take place because of the Fall. Jesus was to become man and Head of the human race with or without it.

If first man had not committed sin why would Jesus have to be born, die, and then rise? God knew man would fail and then sin and because of that Jesus was already committed to saving us.

I do not understand you statement .Would you expound, please?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

you define free will as

You seem to claim free will only existed for Adam & Eve, but none of us

yet the idea of God having control in the garden seems to trouble you(?)

Why do you think it troubles me. It doesn’t trouble me at all. Free will is only found in God, not away from God. I have clarified my statement about our free will. It is much hampered but not eliminated.

now it seems you transition? if free will is man controlled, then man would have to control the intimacy with God in the garden! If God controlled then man would have no way to know what was “intimacy” unless man not God had superior knowledge

Possibly either is true. We are made in His image so we were free to remain or to go. God has free will as well. Free will is determined by our ability to follow the truth. When we lost our full capacity of freedom we lost to that extent our ability to know and hence to follow the Truth. Not all truth is the knowledge of good and evil. At least that is my take on it.

why would this have any affect on free will?
I am asking you to provide a logical flow to support the claim modern humans do not have access to free will, or that free will is “intimacy with god”

Help me here. How would you define free will?

CDL

 

[thistle]

Help me here. How would you define free will?

CDL

The following is a good definition:

“power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination”

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… God has free will as well.

how would you know?*

Free will is determined by our ability to follow the truth. When we lost our full capacity of freedom we lost to that extent our ability to know and hence to follow the Truth**. Not all truth is the knowledge of good and evil. At least that is my take on it. ……………………Help me here. How would you define free will?

CDL

Again without a logical base this is very hard to follow. Your implying many thinks 1) Adam had more knowledge than any other human, yet that makes little sense, 2) Free Will = had no will, it was pure freedom meaning the choices had no affect on the result, or no repercussions. Neither seems to hold up under logic. If Adam was more knowledgeable then he should not have fallen. And even more important if Adam was free regardless of will he could not have fallen. As Adam did fall we know he could not have been free from will.

Similarly the concept of having a first hand relationship with God does not seem to hold up. To what extent did Adam know God? Why was a serpent present? These seem to indicate Adam had the same Free Will we have which is not Freedom from will but Freedom to exercise will and accept the repercussion. So the Freedom seems to be not in the action selected but in the process of selecting. So if given 3 choices with 3 outcomes one is not free from the outcomes, but free to select a choice.

*For god to have free will as it appears in the earlier logic God would have to have final “reward” as with out such no outcomes, consequences, or repercussions exist making the free will meaningless. In the later logic free will exists only if selections exist, and who are we to know if God choose from selections?
**Would Adam not have to be omniscient to know the whole truth? Which of course makes no sense. Yet if Adam only knew partial truth then Adam would have to make decisions based on partial knowledge, just as we do today.

hope that helps

 

[GregoryPalamas]

how would you know?*

First Cause. First Mover. First Designer, etc. Nothing moved Him. He moved all things as He wills. Unless one is positing a universe that mindlessly creates itself. Then of course, one is neither arguing a Catholic position or even a logical one.

Again without a logical base this is very hard to follow. Your implying many thinks 1) Adam had more knowledge than any other human, yet that makes little sense, 2) Free Will = had no will, it was pure freedom meaning the choices had no affect on the result, or no repercussions. Neither seems to hold up under logic. If Adam was more knowledgeable then he should not have fallen. And even more important if Adam was free regardless of will he could not have fallen. As Adam did fall we know he could not have been free from will.

He does not seem to have any more or any less knowledge than we do except for one thing. He/she had a perfect union of love with God. To be sure we are created beings and so do not have complete knowledge but so long as we had complete trust we are free.

Similarly the concept of having a first hand relationship with God does not seem to hold up. To what extent did Adam know God? Why was a serpent present? These seem to indicate Adam had the same Free Will we have which is not Freedom from will but Freedom to exercise will and accept the repercussion. So the Freedom seems to be not in the action selected but in the process of selecting. So if given 3 choices with 3 outcomes one is not free from the outcomes, but free to select a choice.

He had a choice to love God or to turn his back on him. The same primal choice we have after baptism. Actually, I suppose, the same choice we have before baptism but since baptism we actually have the experience of intimacy with Him that Adam had before he made his disasterous choice.

*For god to have free will as it appears in the earlier logic God would have to have final “reward” as with out such no outcomes, consequences, or repercussions exist making the free will meaningless. In the later logic free will exists only if selections exist, and who are we to know if God choose from selections?
**Would Adam not have to be omniscient to know the whole truth? Which of course makes no sense. Yet if Adam only knew partial truth then Adam would have to make decisions based on partial knowledge, just as we do today.

The one element missing in these equations is the element of trust. Trust in God is what we turned our back on. Trust is what is regained through baptism. Without trust in the author of life we have no life in us.

hope that helps

 

[Texas_Roofer]

First Cause. First Mover. First Designer, etc. Nothing moved Him. He moved all things as He wills. Unless one is positing a universe that mindlessly creates itself. Then of course, one is neither arguing a Catholic position or even a logical one.

it seems now you imply “all powerful”= free will?

He does not seem to have any more or any less knowledge than we do except for one thing. He/she had a perfect union of love with God. To be sure we are created beings and so do not have complete knowledge but so long as we had complete trust we are free.

Adam could not have had perfect union with God or there would be no original sin

…

The one element missing in these equations is the element of trust. Trust in God is what we turned our back on. Trust is what is regained through baptism. Without trust in the author of life we have no life in us.

I do think you are mixing grace with free will. Baptism and the other sacraments imbed grace and have no affect on free will.

Adam was in the presence of God which probably prevented being agnostic however Adam clearly had free will as he choose to disobey, had he lacked the capability to disobey that would achieve your standard however it would cause free will to be valueless

 

[GregoryPalamas]

it seems now you imply “all powerful”= free will? Adam could not have had perfect union with God or there would be no original sin I do think you are mixing grace with free will. Baptism and the other sacraments imbed grace and have no affect on free will.

Adam was in the presence of God which probably prevented being agnostic however Adam clearly had free will as he choose to disobey, had he lacked the capability to disobey that would achieve your standard however it would cause free will to be valueless

Texas,

I can’t tell if you are pulling my leg or you have some gaps in your understanding. I suppose I do but you certainly do. I didn’t even hint that all powerful = free will. I do not know how to answer your questions because I can’t tell how seriously you ask them.

CDL

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Texas,

I can’t tell if you are pulling my leg or you have some gaps in your understanding.

I have not mentioned my understanding

I suppose I do but you certainly do. I didn’t even hint that all powerful = free will.

He moved all things as He wills

I do not know how to answer your questions because I can’t tell how seriously you ask them.

CDL

It would not seem the other professors teaching should be rejected?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I have not mentioned my understanding

It would not seem the other professors teaching should be rejected?

Then the fall is a good thing?

CDL

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Then the fall is a good thing?

CDL

Not a good thing, perhaps. But on Easter it is referred to as “O happy fault.” The fall necessitated Christ’s sacrifice. We, as a redeemed people, can proclaim what the angels cannot, God became man to die for us. As the song says, “They shall never know the joy that our salvation brings.”

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Anything can be rationalized, it would seem easier to reviews Adam’s grace before and after the fall. If Adam lived in a state of Grace before the fall his Free Will would only be bound to the decisions to rebel at least from a practical point of view. However once Fallen his free will would be key to obtaining Sanctifying Grace which he would need to replace his lost state of Grace.

 

[fhansen]

A recurring question finally came to a head while discussing theology with one of my Theol 101 students. She said, and I hear this in one way or another about every semester, "“When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and gained free will…” My puzzled look must have distracted her and so she paused. I asked, “are you saying that the fall of mankind gained us free will? Where did you learned that?” “It came from our core course for Freshmen.” “Hmm…” said I, “Who taught you this?”

If this thread gets off the ground I’ll share more information but my question is essentially this. I have believed and taught all my life that one aspect of our image of God is “free will”. This we lost when we died as a consequence of our rebellion. I.e., we lost free will when we disobeyed. The effects of original sin is that we no longer have access to eternal life. We no longer have a choice. Redemption, the Harrowing of Hell, is done at least in part to regain our free will.

If I am wrong and this college professor is right then what is the point of Christianity? http://forums.catholic-convert.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif

CDL

Adam & Eve already had free will when they ate the fruit-that’s what gave them the ability to eat from it in the first place. They gained freedom from Gods’ authority-and separation from Him-by this act of disobedience. Man had been given the freedom to disobey God but not the right to do so. But God hadn’t bothered creating us for nothing. He had given humans a freedom so radical that His plan apparently even included an allowance for them to freely come to learn, for themselves, that their freedom needs limitations, that the freedom of a creature from the authority of his creator is no freedom at all in the end. So God cast man out of the garden where he could experience a life where he-along with his fellow compatriots, called the shots in determining right from wrong -to find out what life without Gods’ authority-what life without God- is really like. In this manner, we get to choose for ourselves. We get to learn that only the Creator can define right and wrong-that the act of a creature doing so is wrong. The reformers generally taught that we were so corrupted by the fall that even our free will was lost but Catholic teaching is that our wills were compromised and dimmed but not so far that they have no role to play in our turning back to God. Jesus’ death won us back the favor-the grace-of God, showing us the way back and helping us to get there-if we’ve learned enough to cooperate with the program.