Free will needs clarification

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I’m using “may” to correctly frame my argument. Neither of us can fully gauge the consequences of every single act on every single mind of every single person. I would make a fool of myself if I claimed to be able to do that. While neither of us can fully analyze the situation, we can make provisional judgments about the situation based on what we can observe. That is what I am doing, and you cannot expect me to have a certainty that you cannot have.
I don’t blame you at all for correctly using the term. However, it is a fact that not only we cannot be sure that allowing the rape will have the desired effect on the rapist, but experience shows that it will have a detrimental effect on bothe parties, we can be quite certain that allowing the rape is not an effective way to cure that “damaged will”.
Surely, as a scientifically minded person, you are familiar with this kind of thing.
I am, but don’t call me Surely. 🙂 😉
But the pollution isn’t harming the healthy wetland. The moral integrity of a person is not affected by being raped.
How can you claim that? It is only human to feel resentment, anger, the desire to “hit back”. Our house was burglarized once, and it was a traumatic experience - even though it cannot be compared to having one’s body violated. Don’t concentrate on the rape only. It can be torture, murder, rape, etc… in case of a murder the victim is annihilated, and there can be no more “moral integrity”.
God does have limited resources in the sense that He cannot control our free will (as distinct from the power to act on that will).
Right on. This is the topic of this thread. The “pure will” is not relevant, only the person’s ability to act on that will.
Communist countries often have very low street crime, because the centralized power wielded by the government can quickly punish any such attempts. This leads to some sort of “peace.” A far better peace is the kind of peace present in highly developed countries like America and western Europe. In these countries, people are generally peaceful because they want to be peaceful. Such countries do have police systems, but generally people enjoy the fruits of peace and therefore desire to continue that peace. It is far better for peace to be rooted in the personal wills of the society rather than the wielders of force.
Been there, seen it, have a t-shirt to prove it. I have first hand experience, and the fact that I escaped that country (30 years ago) shows that I have higher appreciation for true freedom. But it is still a fact that a single girl could have walked on the streets even at night time, without the fear of molestation. Mind you, in those countries the “will” of the bad guys was not influenced, but their ability to carry out their act was curtailed. And I am sure you are aware of the dangers of attempting to have a peaceful stroll in the “bad areas” of Washington, DC.

But this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about conflict resolution. The strategy you argue for is this: “do not curb the violent action by interrupting it forcefully”. You say that it may cure the attacker’s damaged will. You have absolutely no evidence that it will cure it. On the other hand, all evidence shows that uncurbed violence will lead to more violence. If the attacker gets away with his act, it is very likely that he will perform more acts of violence.

Let’s consider game theory. There are two people playing a strategy game, where they can “cooperate” or “antagonize”. Both acts will have an effect on the game, in the form of a payoff matrix. Your proposed strategy is that if one player performs an “antagonistic” move, you should still attempt to “cooperate” (these are mathematical terms here). A simple calculation shows that this is not a good strategy. The “antagonizer” will get more and more “antagonistic”. On the other had, the “retribution” strategy is not good either. If every “hostile” move is met with a “retribution” strategy, both players will “lose”, so to speak. The optimal strategy is to teach that a proper combination and balanace of “appeasment and retribution” will lead to the optimal strategy, where both players will reach the optimum. Of course in Biblical times there was no game theory. Jesus could not have known about the proper ways of conflict resolution. Thus his “ill-advised advice” of “turn the other cheek”, or “do not resist evil”.
 
What? What I mean is that perhaps you found the reference in a kid’s catechism or something, where I could see it being used in a simplistic sense. I am not aware of any official doctrine saying that no good can come out of evil.
Next time I see it, I will make a note of it.
 
I don’t blame you at all for correctly using the term. However, it is a fact that not only we cannot be sure that allowing the rape will have the desired effect on the rapist, but experience shows that it will have a detrimental effect on bothe parties, we can be quite certain that allowing the rape is not an effective way to cure that “damaged will”.
Personal example- I suffered from an anxiety disorder, which was extremely traumatic for me. However, in learning to cope with it I learned how to control my emotions, which proved incredibly helpful for me in my normal, everyday life. I was really shy and socially awkward when I was younger, but this experience helped keep me humble once I was more popular later on.

Another more serious example is Maximilian Kolbe, who as a celibate priest sacrificed his life in a concentration camp to save a father who was going to be executed. I’m sure that had some sort of effect on the man, and it would not have happened without the experience of the concentration camp.
How can you claim that? It is only human to feel resentment, anger, the desire to “hit back”. Our house was burglarized once, and it was a traumatic experience - even though it cannot be compared to having one’s body violated. Don’t concentrate on the rape only. It can be torture, murder, rape, etc… in case of a murder the victim is annihilated, and there can be no more “moral integrity”.
The burglary had one huge impact on you- it made you aware of the human tendency towards resentment, anger, and the desire to “hit back.” By making you aware of those tendencies, the burglary helped bring the issue of human morality sharply into focus, which is really far more important than any physical possessions you had and your own physical safety.

The main way that suffering helps order our wills is by making us aware of the consequences of our actions. It helps crystallize the very real choices that we face by giving predictable consequences to them. When suffering is eliminated, the consequences of our actions tend to disappear from our view. Look at the example of any standard rich female celebrity. The poor farmer who is keenly aware of danger and the consequences of responsibility and irresponsibility is in a far better position morally than the rich brat raised in a cotton-candy world where they don’t have to work hard or think about morality and its consequences.
Right on. This is the topic of this thread. The “pure will” is not relevant, only the person’s ability to act on that will.
The pure will is very relevant, because it is the real human exercise of our intent. Think of marriage. Most people want to marry other people who actually have the will to respect them. No one would want to marry a person who wanted to murder their spouse, even if that person was permanently restricted from carrying out that will.
But this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about conflict resolution. The strategy you argue for is this: “do not curb the violent action by interrupting it forcefully”. You say that it may cure the attacker’s damaged will. You have absolutely no evidence that it will cure it. On the other hand, all evidence shows that uncurbed violence will lead to more violence. If the attacker gets away with his act, it is very likely that he will perform more acts of violence.
First off, no one says that God never curtails the exercise of will. However, if God curtails the exercise of that will, nothing happens. Thus, we do not know about it. We are only aware of the times where God does not restrict a person’s ability to act. We have no idea what percentage of total willed acts that is.

The evidence shows that consequences of actions make those actions meaningful. Your house was broken into. You are now keenly aware of the danger present in such acts, and you also have a clear indication of why you should not break into someone else’s house. God’s goal is to make as many people choose the good as possible. Thus, it is necessary to allow the consequences of our actions to some extent in order to educate us on the actual consequences of our choice.
Let’s consider game theory. There are two people playing a strategy game, where they can “cooperate” or “antagonize”. Both acts will have an effect on the game, in the form of a payoff matrix. Your proposed strategy is that if one player performs an “antagonistic” move, you should still attempt to “cooperate” (these are mathematical terms here). A simple calculation shows that this is not a good strategy. The “antagonizer” will get more and more “antagonistic”. On the other had, the “retribution” strategy is not good either. If every “hostile” move is met with a “retribution” strategy, both players will “lose”, so to speak. The optimal strategy is to teach that a proper combination and balanace of “appeasment and retribution” will lead to the optimal strategy, where both players will reach the optimum. Of course in Biblical times there was no game theory. Jesus could not have known about the proper ways of conflict resolution. Thus his “ill-advised advice” of “turn the other cheek”, or “do not resist evil”.
Jesus also said “render to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s,” which would have been sound advice to follow, given that the Temple was destroyed during the ill-fated Jewish rebellion 30 years later.

You describe a game of “conflict resolution.” Think about what this means. It involves the best way to resolve conflict. Without any suffering, there would be no conflict, and hence no game. God wants us to win the game by the method you describe, so He allows conflict to make the game possible. Learning to cooperate is the goal, but you can’t learn to cooperate without conflict.

Here’s an example from economics. Money works well as the medium of exchange because it provides information about the costs/benefits of the transaction. Without money, it would be hard to gauge what is a good deal or not. By allowing the existence of money, we allow for greater efficiency in building up society.

Suffering works as a medium of choice. Suffering or its lack thereof is the consequence of certain choices. Our experience of suffering allows us to make judgement about the costs/benefits of each choice. By allowing the existence of suffering as a consequence of bad action, God allows us to more effectively build up our moral character through informed knowledge of the costs and benefits of individual choices we are faced with.
 
Another more serious example is Maximilian Kolbe, who as a celibate priest sacrificed his life in a concentration camp to save a father who was going to be executed. I’m sure that had some sort of effect on the man, and it would not have happened without the experience of the concentration camp.
Fine. A good example. Now contemplate the overwhelming majority of the cases, where no such side effect happens.
The burglary had one huge impact on you- it made you aware of the human tendency towards resentment, anger, and the desire to “hit back.”
I did not need that experience. I was already aware of all these factors.
The main way that suffering helps order our wills is by making us aware of the consequences of our actions. It helps crystallize the very real choices that we face by giving predictable consequences to them. When suffering is eliminated, the consequences of our actions tend to disappear from our view. Look at the example of any standard rich female celebrity. The poor farmer who is keenly aware of danger and the consequences of responsibility and irresponsibility is in a far better position morally than the rich brat raised in a cotton-candy world where they don’t have to work hard or think about morality and its consequences.
No doubt. But that does not mean that poverty, hunger, disease is “desiarable”.
The pure will is very relevant, because it is the real human exercise of our intent. Think of marriage. Most people want to marry other people who actually have the will to respect them. No one would want to marry a person who wanted to murder their spouse, even if that person was permanently restricted from carrying out that will.
Who talks about marriage? I am talking about the imprisoned criminal, who is physically restrained from carrying out his evil plans. His will is unrestricted, his ability to act on his will is curtailed. By the way, “respect” is not a volitional action. I could not “decide” to respect Dubya.
First off, no one says that God never curtails the exercise of will. However, if God curtails the exercise of that will, nothing happens. Thus, we do not know about it. We are only aware of the times where God does not restrict a person’s ability to act. We have no idea what percentage of total willed acts that is.
Correct. But the number of instances where God does not interfere is huge. Why would we even assume that there are instances where God does interfere? According to Catholic posters on this board, God never interferes.

And you still did not answer to the fact that people tend to commit more violance when there is no consequence to their actions.
You describe a game of “conflict resolution.” Think about what this means. It involves the best way to resolve conflict. Without any suffering, there would be no conflict, and hence no game. God wants us to win the game by the method you describe, so He allows conflict to make the game possible. Learning to cooperate is the goal, but you can’t learn to cooperate without conflict.
Certainly. Scarcity of resources makes conflicts very likely, almost inevitable. Of course, this is not logically necessary. God could provide more resources, so conflicts of this kind would not even come up. But I was talking about something else, about the optimal strategy. God could have instilled into us to use the optimal strategy.
 
Fine. A good example. Now contemplate the overwhelming majority of the cases, where no such side effect happens.
How do you know that?
I did not need that experience. I was already aware of all these factors.
Maybe God judged differently.
No doubt. But that does not mean that poverty, hunger, disease is “desiarable”.
Not in of themselves, but we have to acknowledge their occasional necessity, just like taking bitter medicine. We should work to alleviate suffering, but at the same time accept that some suffering is going to be necessary and deal with it appropriately.
Who talks about marriage? I am talking about the imprisoned criminal, who is physically restrained from carrying out his evil plans. His will is unrestricted, his ability to act on his will is curtailed. By the way, “respect” is not a volitional action. I could not “decide” to respect Dubya.
You said that the “will itself” is irrelevant. That’s not the case, because we think about more than whether or not a person is physically capable of carrying out violence. Respect is indeed a volitional action, for you could will to shake the hand of Obama even if you didn’t agree or like his policies. Regardless of whether you could physically carry out the action, their is nothing stopping your will itself from sending the signal to raise your hand.
Correct. But the number of instances where God does not interfere is huge. Why would we even assume that there are instances where God does interfere? According to Catholic posters on this board, God never interferes.
Well, I have come across many “close calls” before. Think of Chesser, who was detained by the government on his way to terrorists in the middle east. Was God involved in that? Who knows.
And you still did not answer to the fact that people tend to commit more violance when there is no consequence to their actions.
That’s exactly what I am saying- God allows suffering as consequences.
Certainly. Scarcity of resources makes conflicts very likely, almost inevitable. Of course, this is not logically necessary. God could provide more resources, so conflicts of this kind would not even come up. But I was talking about something else, about the optimal strategy. God could have instilled into us to use the optimal strategy.
Having sufficient material resources is not a guarantee of moral peace- look at Martha Stewart. God does instill the optimal strategy into us, but He cannot force us to use it.

You have not addressed by economic example, and that is the crux of my argument. Here it is, reposted:

Here’s an example from economics. Money works well as the medium of exchange because it provides information about the costs/benefits of the transaction. Without money, it would be hard to gauge what is a good deal or not. By allowing the existence of money, we allow for greater efficiency in building up society.

Suffering works as a medium of choice. Suffering or its lack thereof is the consequence of certain choices. Our experience of suffering allows us to make judgement about the costs/benefits of each choice. By allowing the existence of suffering as a consequence of bad action, God allows us to more effectively build up our moral character through informed knowledge of the costs and benefits of individual choices we are faced with.
 
There are two concepts, which are frequently confused: “free will” and “freedom to act on that will”. Of these two, only the second one matters, the first one does not. Whatever anyone can “wish / want / will” is of no consequence if one is unable to act on that “wish / want / will”. To me this sounds obvious, and would hardly merit a thread, if we would all agree on it. But I have seen opposing opinons, not frequently, but still.

One example of dissent was when I asked why does God always respect the “free will” of the stronger party? I brought up the case of a rape, where the strong rapist’s will prevail over the will of the weak victim. The conversation partner answered that the “free will” of the victim is in no way impaired, just because she is unable to carry out her will (namely not to be raped). Needless to say I was speechless. Since then I saw the same reasoning a few times, so I am asking:

"Is free will separate from freedom to act?".
Hey Spock
The way you describe it yes it is but what is the purpose of bring ing it up?
God bless you and your family
 
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