Free will vs. Determinism

[Michael_David]

HandroZ, yes, it’s like using the ‘past’ ‘present’ and ‘future’ tense all at the same time. A bit like the movie ‘Back to the Future’…

It’s a bit like the Trinity, being three persons in one God…
I prefer to say, three beings in one God, since as far as we know, only Christ became a person.

It is still hard to grasp with the mind, although the soul knows.

 

[BCH]

Many times us mere humans distort what it means to be all-powerful because we look at God through our fallen human nature. Many times we may attribute things to God that only exist on our human level. Human dictators rule as tyrants, not God. God rules as a LOVING FATHER. He has no (zero) deceit or ulterior motives. Seeing God in this light will drastically change how we view His actions.
God doesn’t control our every action because free will is a vital aspect of Love. Could anyone one person force another person to love them by using force? We know in our hearts that this would never work. Our freedom is and indicator of how much God loves us. He does not force those choices but he does see those choices. He lets our lives unfold and we will see for ourselves whether we chose to serve and love Him or we decide to reject Him.

 

[PEPCIS]

According to Catholic belief, God is almighy, all-powerful, all-knowing and omnipotent. He knows everything that has and ever will happen. He also has the power do anything and control anyone should He wish.

Catholicism also teaches that humans have free will. This is the reason why we are accountable for our actions in the eyes of God (and the law for that matter).

However these two principles cannot logically co-operate. If God is all-knowing then we cannot have totally free will because this would imply that our actions have already be determined in some sense in order for God to know them before we have willed it or decided it in our freedom to choose. If God is all-powerful such that He can stop our actions should He will, then we do not have absolute free will, it is ultimately overruled by God’s will.

The “illogic” is in our own thinking, not God’s. The Bible teaches that none of us are born with free will. Most of us spend the greater part of our lives doing the will of Satan, while some of us are blessed with the grace of God that brings salvation.

During this time of being caught in Satan’s will, we live with the ILLUSION that we are free, sovereign creatures, fully capable of setting our own path. Yet, the Bible teaches the exact opposite.

 

[HandroZ]

wow wow whoa! Not so fast there. That’s absolutely, undeniably NOT TRUE. We are born with free will, that’s inseparable from our human condition. I don’t know where you’re pulling this about the Bible this or that, but it’s a fundamental tenet of our faith that we are given free will from the first moment of our existence along with our soul. That’s how we do both good and evil things. We couldn’t ‘turn from Satan’ if we didn’t have the free will to reject him, now could we?

 

[jkiernan56]

I would like to throw in my 2 cents on this issue. I have read all the posts and in most of them there seems to be some misunderstanding about the relationship between KNOWING and CAUSE/EFFECT. God’s Omniscence (All-Knowing) does not cause us to make choices (even though he already knows them before they exist for us - Psalm 139). God is not in time. There is no past, present, and future for God like there is for us. Every moment of human history is eternally present (NOW) to God. Our yesterday is eternally NOW to God. Our future is eternally NOW to God. But Gods’ KNOWING and being eternally present in every moment of OUR time does NOT cause us (or force us - to use a word from an earlier post) to make the choices we do. I recommend reading St. Augustine “On Free Choice of the Will” and CS Lewis “The Problem of Pain”. Also in the back theology section of CS Lewis 'Mere Christianity" Is a good explanation of the relationship between OUR time and God’s eternity.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

The “illogic” is in our own thinking, not God’s. The Bible teaches that none of us are born with free will. Most of us spend the greater part of our lives doing the will of Satan, while some of us are blessed with the grace of God that brings salvation.

During this time of being caught in Satan’s will, we live with the ILLUSION that we are free, sovereign creatures, fully capable of setting our own path. Yet, the Bible teaches the exact opposite.

wow wow whoa! Not so fast there. That’s absolutely, undeniably NOT TRUE.

It’s in the Bible.

HandroZ:

We are born with free will, that’s inseparable from our human condition.

That’s NOT in the Bible.

HandroZ:

I don’t know where you’re pulling this about the Bible this or that, but it’s a fundamental tenet of our faith that we are given free will from the first moment of our existence along with our soul.

Not even all Catholics agree, so you would be wrong on that count. But the Bible is quite clear that we are ALL born into sin.

“For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

“But the scripture hath concluded ALL UNDER SIN, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:22)

Try buying your way out of that one with your free will. It just won’t happen. Everything that man does is accounted as filthy rags by a holy God.

If we were given free will, then why is it that ALL MEN SIN? Not even one man in Billions and Billions of those who have lived on this earth has ever lived without sinning. Only God could do that, because His will is truly free.

HandroZ:

That’s how we do both good and evil things. We couldn’t ‘turn from Satan’ if we didn’t have the free will to reject him, now could we?

Exactly. Now you’re beginning to understand.

 

[davidv]

It’s in the Bible.
{snip}

Where? [re: not being born with free will]

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

It’s in the Bible.

Where? [re: not being born with free will]

The Bible talks about how ALL people are on the road to hell and damnation unless they turn from their sins. This means that you must make an active choice to follow Christ. When Paul wrote his letter to the Ephesians, he told them how they USED to live before they came to Christ and salvation:

Ephesians chapter 2:

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil — the commander of the powers in the unseen world. The devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

When you place that verse in context with other verses which show we were BORN in sin, then it is crystal clear that we were born under the control of the devil, doing his bidding. Ephesians 2 says that, even though we might not know or understand this, that we were “following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature”, and following the “spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.”

When we repent of this life, and turn from the Devil to follow the living God (place our wills in the hands of God), then we no longer are subject to the Devil.

 

[lameser]

This is a good argument. I haven’t heard of the concept of Kairos before but I can imagine what you are talking about. Nonetheless, the same problem still applies even if God is observing history from this objective point of Kairos. Regardless of what position God observes from (indeed one could assume God does not need to literally observe, as if with His eyes), He could not see beyond the each moment of the “chronological present” in Chronos because each decision in each moment is being willed by humans as free agents. Using the example of the String, supposing God looked from Kairos at the 3000 AD piece. It would be blank because the freely-made decisions that would lead to that point have not yet been made. And if they have, it is not by free-willed humans.

The argument that God exists outside space-time does not work for free will because we as humans exists with space-time and if we are truly making decisions as free agents and thus creating the future, it can’t already exist.

 

[davidv]

The Bible talks about how ALL people are on the road to hell and damnation unless they turn from their sins. This means that you must make an active choice to follow Christ. When Paul wrote his letter to the Ephesians, he told them how they USED to live before they came to Christ and salvation:

Ephesians chapter 2:

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil — the commander of the powers in the unseen world. The devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

When you place that verse in context with other verses which show we were BORN in sin, then it is crystal clear that we were born under the control of the devil, doing his bidding. Ephesians 2 says that, even though we might not know or understand this, that we were “following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature”, and following the “spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.”

When we repent of this life, and turn from the Devil to follow the living God (place our wills in the hands of God), then we no longer are subject to the Devil.

How do you equate “on the road to hell” and “born in sin” with absence of free will.

Without free will we could not choose to repent and all would remain in sin and on the road to hell.

What am I missing?

 

[jkiernan56]

“The argument that God exists outside space-time does not work for free will because we as humans exists with space-time and if we are truly making decisions as free agents and thus creating the future, it can’t already exist.”/QUOTE]

That is TRUE and also NOT TRUE. It is TRUE for us who exist in time and the future does not yet exist… It is NOT TRUE for God who does not exist in time and who has no future. God is eternally NOW in every moment of human history (past, present, and future). Even though God is already present in YOUR future and because of that KNOWS what you choose to do, his KNOWING does not cause your actions.

 

[PEPCIS]

How do you equate “on the road to hell” and “born in sin” with absence of free will.

Without free will we could not choose to repent and all would remain in sin and on the road to hell.

What am I missing?

You’re not missing anything. You actually stated it quite well. Let me paraphrase what you stated into four statements:

1. “On the road to hell” and “born in sin” are indicators of what man lacks (free will) to bring about his own salvation
2. Without free will, we cannot choose to repent
3. Everyone would remain in their sins
4. Everyone is going to hell

Now, each of these statements is a truth which is derived from the Bible.

Number 1 corresponds to the verses which I previously posted Ephesians chapter 2:

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil — the commander of the powers in the unseen world. The devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

Number 2 is just a logical extension of understanding that we don’t have free will. If we don’t have free will, then we cannot choose to repent.

Number 3 is just reality. “It is by one man that sin entered into the world, and because of that one man death was passed upon all men, for all have sinned.” (Romans 5:10)

“For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

“But the scripture hath concluded ALL UNDER SIN, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:22)

Number 3 leads us to conclude in Number 4, that everyone is on the road to damnation.

Not a pretty picture.

But, aren’t we glad that Christ died for our sins?!!! Halelujah!

I hope that helps.

Peace,

Mark

 

[Leela]

Hi All,

I recently posted the following in the STEM, STEMG, Other? thread. Since it relates directly to the idea of free will I thought some of you may be interested.

Best, Leela

"If morals are assertions of value and if you can follow me (or accept for the sake of argument) in thinking of value as the fundamental ground-stuff of the world, then moral judgments are the fundamental ground-stuff of the world.

The “Laws of Nature” can be thought of as moral laws. Of course it sounds peculiar at first and awkward and unnecessary to say that hydrogen and oxygen form water because it is moral
to do so. But it is no less peculiar and awkward and unnecessary than to say chemistry professors smoke pipes and go to movies because irresistible cause-and-effect forces of the cosmos force them to do it.

For materialists the logic has been that if Catholics are composed exclusively of atoms and if atoms follow only the law of cause and effect, then Catholics must follow the laws of cause and effect too. We are stuck in a deterministic universe.

Note that this logic can be applied in the reverse direction: If Catholics have free will as they claim, and Catholics are composed exclusively of atoms, then it follows that atoms must exercise choice too.

See how flipping that around still works? The difference between these two points of view is completely philosophical, not scientific. I assert (take note of assertion Petey and JD) that the question of whether an electron does a certain thing because it has to or because it wants to is completely irrelevant to the data of what the electron does. To say that the compass points north out of a reliable preference to do so is no different than saying that it points north because it is caused to. In general “A causes B” can be thought of as “B values precondition A” without changing the logical content of the statement. (Quantum physics fans might consider whether thinking in terns of value and preference clears may even make more sense as the idea of substance breaks down on the subatomic level.)"

 

[davidv]

You’re not missing anything. You actually stated it quite well. Let me paraphrase what you stated into four statements:

1. “On the road to hell” and “born in sin” are indicators of what man lacks (free will) to bring about his own salvation
2. Without free will, we cannot choose to repent
3. Everyone would remain in their sins
4. Everyone is going to hell

Now, each of these statements is a truth which is derived from the Bible.

Number 1 corresponds to the verses which I previously posted Ephesians chapter 2:

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil — the commander of the powers in the unseen world. The devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

Number 2 is just a logical extension of understanding that we don’t have free will. If we don’t have free will, then we cannot choose to repent.

Number 3 is just reality. “It is by one man that sin entered into the world, and because of that one man death was passed upon all men, for all have sinned.” (Romans 5:10)

“For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

“But the scripture hath concluded ALL UNDER SIN, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:22)

Number 3 leads us to conclude in Number 4, that everyone is on the road to damnation.

Not a pretty picture.

But, aren’t we glad that Christ died for our sins?!!! Halelujah!

I hope that helps.

Peace,

Mark

I am truely sorry, but you have completely distorted what I said. I have no desire to attack strawmen. Have a good day.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Eddydenton - What is it that you are doing in your life that God can’t stop you form doing, thereby “proving” Himself to you?

Peace,

Gail

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Hi All,

I recently posted the following in the STEM, STEMG, Other? thread. Since it relates directly to the idea of free will I thought some of you may be interested.

Best, Leela

"If morals are assertions of value and if you can follow me (or accept for the sake of argument) in thinking of value as the fundamental ground-stuff of the world, then moral judgments are the fundamental ground-stuff of the world.

 

[PEPCIS]

I am truely sorry, but you have completely distorted what I said. I have no desire to attack strawmen. Have a good day.

Sticking your head in the sand, huh?

 

[PEPCIS]

I am truely sorry, but you have completely distorted what I said. I have no desire to attack strawmen. Have a good day.

Bit touchy, huh?

I need to make something clear here. I did not change what you said, or misrepresent you in any way. I took what I SAID - and you restated - and showed how this is what the Bible teaches.

I made a statement, which you then challenged me by saying that IF what I said is true, then “such and such” would be true. This, you said, did not make sense to you, and you asked: “What am I missing?”

I then took MY conclusions (which you stated), and showed how it was that MY conclusions (which you stated) were accurate, and that you were not wrong to state MY conclusions in such a way.

In no way did I ever intend MY conclusions (which you stated) to be transferred to what YOU said, or personally believed, and I’m sorry if you mistook them for that.

I hope you are having a good weekend, David.

 

[jkiernan56]

Leela;4424069:

the compass acts under known forces, because it doesn’t understand logic…stupid compass.

Human beings are not controlled by God like puppets on a string as mentioned in the analogy of a compass reacting to physical forces. We have a body (physical reality) and a soul (spiritual reality). The soul consists of the intellect and the will (the ability to KNOW and ACT. It is in the soul that human beings are made in the “image and likeness of God.” Love is not possible without the soul. If there is no “free will”, human beings cannot love. Otherwise we would just be robots. Does anyone deny the reality of love? God did not ask us if we wanted to be created. But we have a choice (free will) over whether we will be “saved” in and through Christ, whether we will love and be loved and where we will spend the rest of OUR eternity. Even though God already knows the future of each of us, God’s knowing does not cause our choices. “All our deeds were recorded in your book even before the first of them occured.” Psalm 139:16

“Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” St. Paul

 

[Leela]

Human beings are not controlled by God like puppets on a string as mentioned in the analogy of a compass reacting to physical forces. We have a body (physical reality) and a soul (spiritual reality). The soul consists of the intellect and the will (the ability to KNOW and ACT. It is in the soul that human beings are made in the “image and likeness of God.” Love is not possible without the soul. If there is no “free will”, human beings cannot love. Otherwise we would just be robots. Does anyone deny the reality of love? God did not ask us if we wanted to be created. But we have a choice (free will) over whether we will be “saved” in and through Christ and where we will spend the rest of OUR eternity. Even though God already knows the future of each of us, God’s knowing does not cause our choices. “All our deeds were recorded in your book even before the first of them occured.” Psalm 139:16

Peace

Hi jkiernan, all

The above post apparently attributed to me a response to my post by Petey (who is on my ignore list of posts that are not displayed for me). The quoted words appearing under my name are not mine but Petey’s.

I do not deny free will and would never say that human decisions are governed by the same forces that make a compass point north.

Since Petey is on my ignore list, if he raises an issue that you would like me to address, I hope you will address me yourself. I do want to clarify or defend everything I post if needed. I do not disregard his posts to avoid answering any questions but for other reasons.

Best,
Leela