Free will vs. Determinism

[dumbseeker]

This was also the question I had before but it is resolved now.

My father was asking this question to me: “if someone invites you to have a big dinner for free, will you go?”

I said, yes.

My father already knew what I would answer, but he did not force me to answer. Just because someone knows your answer and what is going to happen, it does not mean they make it happen.

 

[jkiernan56]

Leela, my sincere apologies. I did a cut and paste from your post and it implied you were taking the position against free will. I am glad to hear you don’t subscribe to such non-sense.

Dumbseeker, I liked your analogy about the free dinner. The one problem is that although everyone is invited to eternal life (the wedding feast Christ mentions in the Gospel) - not everyone responds to the call to holiness (to LOVE). But you hit the hammer right on the nail, to KNOW something does not CAUSE it. God already KNOWS who will go to heaven because our future is already NOW to God, but only those who want to go to heaven will. There will not be anyone in heaven who does NOT want and choose to be there.

 

[jkiernan56]

I would like to also clarify another idea about the idea of CAUSE and EFFECT.

When reading those who argue against the idea of free will, I have come to understand that it is an attempt by some to put all the blame on God for evil, pain and suffering. If a person takes the position that God causes everything, then God also causes evil (as well as good) … a concept of dualism found in eastern religions … the logical conclusion is that no one is responsible for their actions. God can be blamed for everything (like the thought expressed in an earlier post that human beings are like electrons revolving around an atom). This thought espouses that human beings do what they do because God causes it. But I strongly disagree and here is why …

God does CAUSE all reality to exist (since it was God who brought the world into being and keeps it in existence - just as a thought exists in my mind as long as I think it). If God should stop thinking and willing the universe, it would cease to exist. Only God need exist (the FIRST cause of all causes but WHO is not caused). And while it is TRUE to say that God causes all reality/existence, it is FALSE to say that causing existence causes OUR choices. And while it is TRUE to say that God gives us and causes OUR ability to make choices, it is FALSE to say that the choices we make are done by God (and not by us). To give an imperfect analogy, supposed I make a hammer and give it to a friend as a gift for their birthday. My friend can use the hammer to make improvements on their house or they can use it to bash in a neighbors head. The friend could not do these actions if they did not have hammer. The same is true with regards to free will. God causes our actions in that God causes our existence and our ability to make choices. Without them we couldn’t perform our actions. Implicit in the idea of making choices is free will. We cannot make choices unless we have a free will. We do not have a free will unless God causes us to exist and gives us this function of the soul. But giving existence and abilities of the soul, does not cause our actions in the sense that God is performing our actions for us as if we were passive objects (using our free will like a hammer in destructive ways). God’s CAUSING our existence (and abilities) in addition to God’s KNOWING all the choices that we make does not CAUSE our choices in that sense. We can’t do unless we have and we cannot have unless it is given to us. But what is given to us does not MAKE us do what we CHOOSE to do. What is so beautiful is that God created us to KNOW and LOVE God. That is not possible without a free will. We are not robots or puppets on a string. Please say a prayer for me because I am really struggling with a particular temptation right now and I know I am very weak. Thank you.

 

[jkiernan56]

I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended in my last post … when I said that those who deny free-will are trying to put the blame on God for evil and suffering. As I thought about it over the weekend, I realized that was wrong of me to make that judgement of anyone.

One of the greatest struggles for any Christian (or person for that matter) is to try to reconcile God’s ALL KNOWING (Omniscence) and ALL POWERFUL (Omnipotence) and Holiness (LOVE) with the problem of evil. How do they and can they co-exist? It is a struggle every person has to try to understand and reconcile. It was very wrong of me to imply that a person who denies free-will is trying to put all the blame on God for evil (and thus are not responsible for their actions). I have no right to make that judgement. A person who denies free-will could just be someone who is trying to reconcile God’s attributes with the problem of evil. I applaud anyone who is trying to grapple with this problem to understand it. I just disagree with the conclusion that free-will does not exist in order to try to reconcile these differences.

Peace.

 

[PEPCIS]

I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended in my last post … when I said that those who deny free-will are trying to put the blame on God for evil and suffering. As I thought about it over the weekend, I realized that was wrong of me to make that judgement of anyone.

Thank you, jk. We should all realize, as Christians, that we still sin, and we still need to repent whenever we do. I’m not so sure that your offense was worthy of the title of “sin”, but I appreciate that you decided that maybe you could have said things better.

Personally, I did not take much offense to it, but rather, I chalked it up to a lack of understanding what my position is. While I am a Calvinist, I’m not your typical/traditional Calvinist. I ascribe to free will, but I deny that man’s will is ultimately/completely free.

Our will is only as free as our power and ability to perform it. Only God has all power and ability to perform His will, therefore, God’s will is COMPLETELY FREE.

As Ephesians 2 says, all Christians “used to walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.” Once we have come to know Christ, and accept what He has done for us, we begin a knew walk, according to His purposes. We USED to walk according to Satan’s purposes, and now we walk according to God’s. Either way, our wills are subject to someone else’s. Either God or Satan.

But, that is not to say that we don’t exercise our will all the time. It just means that it is limited to the power that we have to perform it. That is why Calvinists say that man cannot save himself, because he lacks the power to perform it. The Bible confirms this in John 1:12,13.

One of the greatest struggles for any Christian (or person for that matter) is to try to reconcile God’s ALL KNOWING (Omniscence) and ALL POWERFUL (Omnipotence) and Holiness (LOVE) with the problem of evil. How do they and can they co-exist?

It certainly is one of the most difficult concepts, and all-too-often we attempt to understand it by projecting our own sinful understandings, instead of allowing God to speak to us through His Word. I can attest to this personally.

But, we do know that God says in Isaiah “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Of course, in this context, evil is nothing more than the absence of peace. Our human understanding of “evil” is a person who performs actions which are devoid of any affection for his fellow human.

It is a struggle every person has to try to understand and reconcile.

It truly is. But, that is because we try to assign too much to God, and not enough for ourselves. While my will may be limited in what it can perform, this much is certain: I cannot save myself, anymore than a “leopard can change his spots, or the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin.” (Jer 13:23) Not because I do not want to, but because I lack the power to do so.

I may want to build a rocket and land on the moon, but unless I have the money and power to perform that, my will is useless and powerless.

It was very wrong of me to imply that a person who denies free-will is trying to put all the blame on God for evil (and thus are not responsible for their actions).

I suppose that some may do that, and it might be natural to think or imply that. Don’t be too hard on yourself.

Have a great day!

God Bless,

Mark

 

[jkiernan56]

I ascribe to free will, but I deny that man’s will is ultimately/completely free …

Our will is only as free as our power and ability to perform it. Only God has all power and ability to perform His will, therefore, God’s will is COMPLETELY FREE. " …

But, that is not to say that we don’t exercise our will all the time. It just means that it is limited to the power that we have to perform it …

While my will may be limited in what it can perform, this much is certain: I cannot save myself, anymore than a “leopard can change his spots, or the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin.” (Jer 13:23) Not because I do not want to, but because I lack the power to do so …

I may want to build a rocket and land on the moon, but unless I have the money and power to perform that, my will is useless and powerless …

Don’t be too hard on yourself.

Mark

Thank you Mark for your thoughts and kind words. Those are some excellent ideas and have given me something to ponder and grapple with. As far as not being too hard on myself … I am learning to “do unto myself as I would do unto others” (words intentionally reversed) … I know that learning to love myself is essential to loving others … “love your neighbor as yourself”. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to reply. Peace to you as well.

 

[jkiernan56]

I ascribe to free will, but I deny that man’s will is ultimately/completely free …

Our will is only as free as our power and ability to perform it. Only God has all power and ability to perform His will, therefore, God’s will is COMPLETELY FREE. " …

But, that is not to say that we don’t exercise our will all the time. It just means that it is limited to the power that we have to perform it …

On Freedom, Free-Will, and Responsibility

Mark, I did a little thinking about your ideas on free-will and freedom. I agree with you about the distinction you make between the two. Free-will means to me the faculty of the soul to make choices. I also agree with you that we are not completely free in the sense of the meaning of freedom. The exercise of free-will can either lead to “Freedom” or slavery to sin. Free-will is only truly free to the degree that it chooses the good (God) and rejects evil. Here is an excerpt that I read that says it much better than I ever could …

"Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will to act or not act, to do this or that, and so to perform deleberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to ‘the slavery of sin’.

Freedom makes man ‘responsibile’ for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts."

CC 1731 - 1734

There is a lot more that can be mentioned here about the grace of God and the gift of salvation in Christ. But needless to say, we cannot be “saved” and completely free unless we want to be and through our choices. God did not ask us if we wanted to be created, but we cannot be saved and really free without our consent and cooperation with God’s grace that He gives us through Christ.

The original reason I replied to a post here about Free-Will and Determinism is because someone wrote that we do not have a free-will (faculty of the soul to make choices) because everything comes from God, including evil. Therefore people are not responsible for their actions. My mind and body start to explode when I read this kind of non-sense.

Peace

 

[benedictus2]

According to Catholic belief, God is almighy, all-powerful, all-knowing and omnipotent. He knows everything that has and ever will happen. He also has the power do anything and control anyone should He wish.

Catholicism also teaches that humans have free will. This is the reason why we are accountable for our actions in the eyes of God (and the law for that matter).

However these two principles cannot logically co-operate. If God is all-knowing then we cannot have totally free will because this would imply that our actions have already be determined in some sense in order for God to know them before we have willed it or decided it in our freedom to choose. If God is all-powerful such that He can stop our actions should He will, then we do not have absolute free will, it is ultimately overruled by God’s will.

Conversely, if we do in fact have free will. Then God cannot be all-powerful and all-knowing because if we have the freedom to choose with being overruled then God cannot be all-powerful. If our action are not determined by anything other than the free will of our minds then God cannot know before we do and thus He is not all-knowing.

He can still be omnipotent though. Bit of consolation for God.

Can I just say that you classify yourself as a Philospher but your premises do not make sense.

First off that God is all powerful and all knowing has nothing to do with the Freedom of the Human Will. Being all powerful and all knowing does not preclude Him from letting us be. They are two different concepts hence does not cancel each other out.

So I think the first thing you need to sort out are your premises because as they are stated, it is a non-sequitur.

Now Saint Thomas and and Molina and maybe Calvin at least got their premises right and this was in relation to predestination.

The matter is between Free Will and Grace.

Whether God moves people to act by Grace (which depending on its efficacy) cancels the Freedom of the Will or whether we are totally Free in which case our salvation is totally dependent on our efforts. And these two at first glance seem mutally exclusive but at close examination are not.

But I am not sure this is even what you are talking about.

 

[Dan86]

Well, some philosophers (such as Hobbes and Hume) believe that free will and determinism are compatible.

 

[benedictus2]

Well, some philosophers (such as Hobbes and Hume) believe that free will and determinism are compatible.

But the whole OP is not clear on what he is getting at.
A clearer set of premises and what he is trying to get at would make for a more intelligient discussion.

There is nowhere in the OP where it says that God intends to exercise his all knowledge and omnipotence to impinge on free will or why He would want to do so.

The only way the OP will make sense is if you tie it in with Predestination, where the responsibility for good or evil lies, whether God is really good if evil exists, etc, etc.

As it stands, it is rather incomplete and very fuzzy.