Free will

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If God in all knowing and all powerfull then predestination is a locical necessity. Wouuld you agree?
 
GramdpaMunster said:
If God in all knowing and all powerfull then predestination is a locical necessity. Wouuld you agree?
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Actually no, it’s not. The freedom of the will does not negate God’s omniscience nor His omnipotence. Just because He chooses not to interfere with our free will does not mean He doesn’t know what is going to happen or has no control over it. Our choices are still uniquely and authentically ours. Also, there is no such thing as predestination in “God-time,” as He is not constrained by our concept of time, but exists in the eternal now.
 
  • I guess by predestination I mean that everything that happens, including who is saved and who isn’t, has already been determined.
  • God has control over every quality, I’m not sure I understand your question.
 
Ok, first understand that God is outside of linear time, he has seen our entire lives from start to finish at once. Second understanding this, he doesn’t just stand on the outside, letting it all unfold to it’s natural conclusion entirely by itself. He sees a person moving in a wrong direction, he tends to jump in, intervene as he sees fit and helps us along to keep the course but still leaves it up to us to make our choices, good or bad, will will make them entirely on our own. The fact remains, without his help in our lives, we all would be facing utter and total destruction left entirely to our own devices, left entirely alone, and he see’s in cases where there is suffering, the outcome becoming good of it, he lets us suffer for that greater good in us even though during those times we really don’t know why at all, looking back though, we all must admit, it was for the good in the end once we saw how it all unfolded.

Now, if it was a case of him moving towards utter and total correction with every aspect of our lives, we no longer would have free will, we would be no better then the animals, moved and programmed to act and behave a certain way and nothing more, that model is not a whole lot to relate to in any regards and I say this for this reason “Man was made in the image of God”… This speaks a great deal as to his intention with us as his creation, he wants us to love him out of our free will, not subject to his will, for it would be similar to a programmer expecting something more from the program that he wrote. We get these special graces of individuality, of being a unique creation in relation to him and this unique property is what helps endear us to him, and him to us.
 
“he lets us suffer for that greater good in us even though during those times we really don’t know why at all, looking back though, we all must admit, it was for the good in the end once we saw how it all unfolded.”
I’ve seen this in my life and it’s absolutely true.

God is outside of linear time and in the spirit world time and space as we know it doesn’t exist. That’s why hell and heaven are eternal.
I also agree that left to our own devices there is no way to live a life pleasing to God.
When God created man in the image of God he had a free will. But eating of the knowledge of good and evil corrupted that will. The will is no longer free in any real sense because we’re only free to sin, when we live in a manner that is pleasing to God it’s the result of God’s grace. Free will then is largely an illusion.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
“he lets us suffer for that greater good in us even though during those times we really don’t know why at all, looking back though, we all must admit, it was for the good in the end once we saw how it all unfolded.”
I’ve seen this in my life and it’s absolutely true.

God is outside of linear time and in the spirit world time and space as we know it doesn’t exist. That’s why hell and heaven are eternal.
I also agree that left to our own devices there is no way to live a life pleasing to God.
When God created man in the image of God he had a free will. But eating of the knowledge of good and evil corrupted that will. The will is no longer free in any real sense because we’re only free to sin, when we live in a manner that is pleasing to God it’s the result of God’s grace. Free will then is largely an illusion.
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We are free to chose sin, we are also free to chose righteousness, it’s entirely our choice. What eve did was force us ahead of time to become subject to this kind of free will the same kind of free will that chose sin and was cast down from heaven. We are considered a fallen race of beings, in the end, we are just the opposite, for now, we have to muddle through the muck, grow from our infancy, and do so because ONE person opened this door… When we live in the manner that God wants us to be in, it’s his grace indeed, we still must chose to accept his grace regardless, all of us can easily and quickly reject it, and that is the defining element that still continues to give our free will value.
 
Yes predestination is real but we are all predestined to heaven and by our own free will we chose to not follow him when we sin and by that if we don’t repent of our sins we are choosing to go to hell there isn’t any double predestination:)
 
" we are all predestined to heaven and by our own free will we chose to not follow him when we sin and by that if we don’t repent of our sins we are choosing to go to hell"

When we choose to sin we do so by our own free will. Our will, however, is corrupted. It’s like putting a 2 quart a day alcoholic in a liquer store and telling him he’s free not to drink. Is that true? Of course it is, but you know in the end he’s going to drink anyway.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
If God in all knowing and all powerfull then predestination is a locical necessity. Wouuld you agree?
Click to expand...
Since God is all powerful, he has the ability to make man truly free.
It’s paradoxical, for sure, and I recognize the difficulties in reconciling God’s omniscience and our freedom, but if you believe in God’s omnipotence, than you believe that he could make man with free will.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
“he lets us suffer for that greater good in us even though during those times we really don’t know why at all, looking back though, we all must admit, it was for the good in the end once we saw how it all unfolded.”
I’ve seen this in my life and it’s absolutely true.

God is outside of linear time and in the spirit world time and space as we know it doesn’t exist. That’s why hell and heaven are eternal.
I also agree that left to our own devices there is no way to live a life pleasing to God.
When God created man in the image of God he had a free will. But eating of the knowledge of good and evil corrupted that will. The will is no longer free in any real sense because we’re only free to sin,** when we live in a manner that is pleasing to God it’s the result of God’s grace**. Free will then is largely an illusion.
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We have the free will to be a conduit for the grace or a damn.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
When we choose to sin we do so by our own free will. Our will, however, is corrupted. It’s like putting a 2 quart a day alcoholic in a liquer store and telling him he’s free not to drink. Is that true? Of course it is, but you know in the end he’s going to drink anyway.
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Spend some time in AA and you’ll meet plenty of bar tenders and liqueur store sales men with lots of sobriety.
 
It appears that many people confuse the fact that God’s Knowing equals God’s willing or causing something to be.

God has created us & set us in motion within the context of space & time. He has given us the ability to choose (free will) which path(es) we can or should follow.

As pointed out in others commentary above, God is free to intervene in our lives to a greater or lesser extent & this Interruption, this interference requires a response from us. Again, a free will choice. these take place within this TIME/SPACE environment in which we currently function. All the choices we make will tend to lead us to Heaven or Hell. But they were made by us.

Folks seem to think that God’s Knowing the results of OUR Choices is some form of predestination. It isn’t. We Determine where we end up. Heaven or Hell.

To some degree “Predeterminism” is like writing the end of the novel first & then manipulating all the story’s characters over & over again to ensure that you reach the Predetermined conclusion. With God its more like He starts the Story(ies); He hires us and then Allows each one of us to write & finish our stories. He may intervene & remind us of certain due dates for chapters or demand a rewrite but that is it. Now He being the Editor/Publisher, will Know the Endings of all those stories but He actually wrote none of them. In the end each story will succeed or fail on its own merits. (Heaven or Hell).

I hope this helps.

Vivat Jesus! 😃
 
“The will is no longer free in any real sense because we’re only free to sin”
Where did you get this?

Prior to the fall of man we had, to some extent, free will. When adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that changed. Adam aquired knowledge that the human race was not ment to have. Hence the current society of war, vice, poverty, and depravity. We have knowledge but we don’t have the ability to act on it in a rightous manner.
After the fall human psychology was altered and in and of itself can not live in a manner that is pleasing to God. Hence we are free, but our freedom will always lead to sin. Free will, then, is an illusion.
 
“It appears that many people confuse the fact that God’s Knowing equals God’s willing or causing something to be”

Everything that exists is due to God’s willing or causing to be. Even evil is a lack of God’s presence, but God had to withdraw his presence in the first place.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
Prior to the fall of man we had, to some extent, free will.
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Only to some extent?
When adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that changed. Adam aquired knowledge that the human race was not ment to have. Hence the current society of war, vice, poverty, and depravity. We have knowledge but we don’t have the ability to act on it in a rightous manner.
After the fall human psychology was altered and in and of itself can not live in a manner that is pleasing to God. Hence we are free, but our freedom will always lead to sin. Free will, then, is an illusion.
Click to expand...
I know this is what you believe, I’m asking where you came up with it?
 
GramdpaMunster said:
“It appears that many people confuse the fact that God’s Knowing equals God’s willing or causing something to be”

Everything that exists is due to God’s willing or causing to be. Even evil is a lack of God’s presence, but God had to withdraw his presence in the first place.
Click to expand...
Protestant Poppycock!! We are free to choose to repent & follow God or Not. Omniscience is All Knowing NOT ALL CAUSING… Causing or bringing something into existence is clearly different than controlling it throughout its existence.

The Fact that God started the universe in Motion & (being outside of Time & Space) Knows when it will end has little to no influence upon whether or not you choose to Obey God & his Commandments or not.

I understand that for many Calvinist influenced Pro-test-ants this train of thought is not acceptable. If you were to entertain it you just might become a Catholic & woe be to you should that occur. Perhaps following your logic sinners - Actively practicing & Unrepentant - should be allowed upon your altars as Priests and Priestesses. in direct defiance of Biblical & historical Lutheran Church Teachings.
Oops!! seems that are!! Now where would we Find that in your Sola Scriptura Bible?? Perhaps its time to use that Free Will & turn from the darkness into the Light.

Regards, Vivat Jesus!
 
When adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that changed. Adam aquired knowledge that the human race was not ment to have. Hence the current society of war, vice, poverty, and depravity. We have knowledge but we don’t have the ability to act on it in a rightous manner.
After the fall human psychology was altered and in and of itself can not live in a manner that is pleasing to God. Hence we are free, but our freedom will always lead to sin. Free will, then, is an illusion.
Click to expand...
Before Jesus came, we were slaves to sin, and could hardly do what was right. Our free will was weakened so much that we always had a very strong inclination to sin. But, we still had some freedom, thus all our actions certainly did not lead to sin. After all, Moses and David both committed serious sins at one point, but they repented and they were called were holy and righteous. So before Jesus came, men could still repent, thus escape hell when they died.
Code: 
Jesus came to free us from the slavery of sin.   That is why we say at mass, "by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free, You are the savior of the world"
We receive the grace that frees us from the slavery of sin through prayer and the sacraments, especially the Eucharist.
 
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