Free will

[EnterCanaan]

Entercaanan:
Your scripture references only go to prove my point:
God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is not talking about a precondition for salvation. We read in Philippians 2:13** For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

God is in control. It’s just that simple. If we go to hell it’s because we do not accept Christ’s sarifice for our sins, but it is only God’s grace that leads you to repent. IF you want to believe in free will go ahead. You’re not wrong. Human will is corrupted, however, and people with free will will always choose to sin.

This is the only contradiction in your statement: ** If we go to hell it’s because we do not accept Christ’s sarifice for our sins

Your argument is valid, as I believe the same thing, however it is one little contradiction to say we have a choice to accept or reject Christ. That would be a stipulation for Freewill, and freewill has nothing to do with being saved or not. As you already said, God must draw us, and we are drawn through His word, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So that is really the only precondition to salvation, is an indivual must hear the word of God, then what happens is God applies that word to a persons heart by ways of the holy spirit. If a person is drawn to God, by God, THEN good works may show up in your life, a good work would be faith, believing, charity, these are not words that can be applied to an indivual as valid work they do, because we are not saved by work, Christ did all the work, our faith and believing is only a result that God is working in our lives,

We must ditinguish the difference first in order to really say we walk with God. If a person says I believe, well that means nothing, as it is not their desire, or will, or belief that got them saved, or is going to get them saved, that will lead to destruction.

Predestination is real, and those who hear the word and in Gods good pleasure He applies that word, then in the believers life good works will show up and be proof as our desire to work the will of God will be more and more important to us, and if we sin, we are disgusted and approach God like the publican who smote his breast and would not look up to heaven, he approached God broken begging for mercy because it is all Gods work.

Luke 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner

Like the Ninevites who sat in sackcloth and ashes, which is a picture of being broken before God, this is how we are to approach God and this is a proof that God is working in our lives, freewill has nothing to do with deciding to believe or accept or to not believe and to reject, this is not possible for us, this is biblical.

We must realize this first and foremost. Embrace the word and study daily and do not reject what you read in the bible because it doesn’t make sense or fit into your logic, your logic and Gods logic are seperate, God tells us faith is a work, and faith is the substance for things hoped for, substance implies work, and we are not saved by work, and also faith withough works is dead, many different statments about work, yet you must find the harmony, and the harmony is that by Christ’s faith in you, which would be Christ work, then the result of faith in our lives will be evident, which would be considered a good work, a fruit, as it is by product of Gods faith in you, not what we do, but a byproduct of Gods work.

questions?
God bless

 

[Philthy]

If predestination existed in the sense you mean it, you wouldnt be asking the question!

Hi Gramps!

Did this comment go over your head?
Is your opinion on the topic predestined by God or do you believe we are actually entering into a dialogue that could result in a changed opinion? Think, man, think. Of course we are in a dialogue, and God, in His wisdom and omnipotence has WILLED THAT OUR FREE WILL CHOICES ARE REAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL. It is part of our nature, being made in His image.
Also, you need to learn to use the quote feature - it will save you a lot of typing! Whenever you want to reply to something someone else has posted, and you wish for us to know what you are replying to, simply hit the “Quote” feature at the bottom right of their post(look at it now - bottom right corner) and it will automatically appear as part of your new post.

 

[Dan_Parker]

GramdpaMunster:
Entercaanan, Your scripture references only go to prove my point:
God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is not talking about a precondition for salvation. We read in Philippians 2:13** For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

God is in control. It’s just that simple. If we go to hell it’s because we do not accept Christ’s sarifice for our sins, but it is only God’s grace that leads you to repent. IF you want to believe in free will go ahead. You’re not wrong. Human will is corrupted, however, and people with free will will always choose to sin.

Dan:
GramdpaMunster, if I understand you correctly, you interpret John 6:44 as having the meaning that those who the Father draws do not have the ability to resist. Is that your interpretation? That is not what that text says. Why do you (apparently) view it that way?

 

[EnterCanaan]

GramdpaMunster:
Entercaanan, Your scripture references only go to prove my point:
God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is not talking about a precondition for salvation. We read in Philippians 2:13** For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

God is in control. It’s just that simple. If we go to hell it’s because we do not accept Christ’s sarifice for our sins, but it is only God’s grace that leads you to repent. IF you want to believe in free will go ahead. You’re not wrong. Human will is corrupted, however, and people with free will will always choose to sin.

Dan:
GramdpaMunster, if I understand you correctly, you interpret John 6:44 as having the meaning that those who the Father draws do not have the ability to resist. Is that your interpretation? That is not what that text says. Why do you (apparently) view it that way?

Dan,
unfortunately, your assesment is in error. Believing and having faith is a work. The bible says “faith is the substance for things hoped for”, substance implies work, and work will not get us saved. A person can only have faith and belief, **IF **God draws him, It is entirely the work of God, and if God draws us, then the result in our lives, is the good works of faith of believe. these are good works that result in the faith Christ has in us, His faith is the work in question, and He applies this faith into our heart, the result is a desire to do the will of God, Nobody is strong enough to resist this attraction to the word of God.

Philippians 2:13** For **it is God **which worketh in you **both to will **and to do of his good pleasure

This verse alone should be a redflag to those who subscribe to the notion of choice. It is not anybodies choice, we are all born spiritually dead, we have no ability to make a choice that will grant us eternal life, the dead can not become alive on their own. I know you realize this point, it is drivin home, however you must finish the thought process, if this is so, then freewill just makes no sense in terms of eternal salvation, it is in error

And indeed all those who are predestined to become saved, will not have the ability to resist as our LORD has clearly said in His word that He has come to save that which was lost, and that He lost “NONE” of them. Gods will is greater than freewill to put it another way. Nobody has the power or will to believe or reject God, Understanding this is crucial

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition[Satan]; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

questions,
God Bless

 

[Dan_Parker]

EnterCanaan:
Dan,
unfortunately, your assesment is in error. Believing and having faith is a work. The bible says “faith is the substance for things hoped for”, substance implies work, and work will not get us saved. A person can only have faith and belief, **IF **God draws him, It is entirely the work of God, and if God draws us, then the result in our lives, is the good works of faith of believe. these are good works that result in the faith Christ has in us, His faith is the work in question, and He applies this faith into our heart, the result is a desire to do the will of God, Nobody is strong enough to resist this attraction to the word of God.

Dan:
I am a firm believer in expanding the context past a proof-text to find out if the passage addresses subjects before attempting to “wing” it. Our passage does this:

KJV John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. {Labour not: or,** Work** not} 28 Then said they unto him,** What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?** 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Now lets look at the immediate context of John 6:44 which follows this:
KJV John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath **learned **of the Father, cometh unto me.

When one unpacks that phrase “comes to me” in the immediate context it can be seen that both hearing and learning are required. But what does it mean to “come” to Jesus?

The*** Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich *** Greek Lexicon (BDAG) says of this phrase in this verse: ***come to Jesus = become disciples of Jesus *J 5:40; 6:35, 37, 44f, 65 **

EnterCanaan:
Philippians 2:13** For **it is God **which worketh in you **both to will **and to do of his good pleasure

This verse alone should be a redflag to those who subscribe to the notion of choice. It is not anybodies choice, we are all born spiritually dead, we have no ability to make a choice that will grant us eternal life, the dead can not become alive on their own. I know you realize this point, it is drivin home, however you must finish the thought process, if this is so, then freewill just makes no sense in terms of eternal salvation, it is in error

Dan:
KJV 1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s

Yes God does a work in drawing us but we also work together with him. The Greek word here is SUNERGO (SUN = with, ERGO = work). Some bibles render this as co-workers.

EnterCanaan:
And indeed all those who are predestined to become saved, will not have the ability to resist as our LORD has clearly said in His word that He has come to save that which was lost, and that He lost “NONE” of them. Gods will is greater than freewill to put it another way. Nobody has the power or will to believe or reject God, Understanding this is crucial

Dan:
You might want to go back and read that he lost none except Judas. That being said, I am not suggesting that Jesus lost anyone. However in John 15 it is made clear that the Father gives and the Father can also take away:
KJV John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Read the rest of the chapter and see that those branches are burned up. Lest you say these were mere pretenders, note that Jesus said these branches were “in me” (ie in Christ = EN XRISTO) and therefore not merely claiming to be Christian.

EnterCanaan:
Matthew 18:1; Luke 19:10; John 17:12; …
John 18:9
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Dan:
I agree with those verses but remember John 15? Now, I would like to address why John 6:44 does not prove that one has no choice but to come to Jesus.

1. The word “draw” there is hELKW and it means in this context to draw by attraction. BDAG says of the use here that it means “2. to draw a pers. in the direction of values for inner life,*** draw, attract”***
2. The Greek conditional here says that one cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. That is true, but it does not say that one must “come” (ie be a disciple of Jesus. However of those the Father draws and who come to Jesus Jesus continues to explain that once one is drawn they must hear (ie heed) and learn (ie obey) and then they can be said to have truly come to him.

KJV John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath **learned **of the Father, **cometh **unto me.

The verbal form of “cometh” is the present tense form and this indicates that those who are coming (continue to be disciples) will be the ones who are resurrected at the last day.

 

[Heliotropium]

" we are all predestined to heaven and by our own free will we chose to not follow him when we sin and by that if we don’t repent of our sins we are choosing to go to hell"

When we choose to sin we do so by our own free will. Our will, however, is corrupted. It’s like putting a 2 quart a day alcoholic in a liquer store and telling him he’s free not to drink. Is that true? Of course it is, but you know in the end he’s going to drink anyway.

Sorry thats not a very good example to use for your case against free will lol. You have no garuntee that the drunk will drink.

 

[GramdpaMunster]

Hi Gramps!

Did this comment go over your head?
Is your opinion on the topic predestined by God or do you believe we are actually entering into a dialogue that could result in a changed opinion? Think, man, think. Of course we are in a dialogue, and God, in His wisdom and omnipotence has WILLED THAT OUR FREE WILL CHOICES ARE REAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL. It is part of our nature, being made in His image.
Also, you need to learn to use the quote feature - it will save you a lot of typing! Whenever you want to reply to something someone else has posted, and you wish for us to know what you are replying to, simply hit the “Quote” feature at the bottom right of their post(look at it now - bottom right corner) and it will automatically appear as part of your new post.

 

[GramdpaMunster]

“Did this comment go over your head?
Is your opinion on the topic predestined by God or do you believe we are actually entering into a dialogue that could result in a changed opinion? Think, man, think. Of course we are in a dialogue, and God, in His wisdom and omnipotence has WILLED THAT OUR FREE WILL CHOICES ARE REAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL. It is part of our nature, being made in His image.”

In time I’ll master the quote feature.
The question didn’t really go over my head - I’m just not sure how to respond to it. Everything is by God’s grace, I suppose including this dialogue. Our free will is real and our choices are consequential, but our nature is corrupt. If left to our oun devices we will sin. How is that real freedom?

 

[GramdpaMunster]

God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

GramdpaMunster, if I understand you correctly, you interpret John 6:44 as having the meaning that those who the Father draws do not have the ability to resist. Is that your interpretation? That is not what that text says.

Yes it does.

 

[Dan_Parker]

God says in John 6:44** No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

GramdpaMunster, if I understand you correctly, you interpret John 6:44 as having the meaning that those who the Father draws do not have the ability to resist. Is that your interpretation? That is not what that text says.

Yes it does.

Commonly people rely on a particular sense for the word rendered ‘draw’ in Greek (hELKW) and maintain it means to drag someone against their will.

NAS John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws = hELKW him; and I will (b)raise him up on the last day.

I note you identify yourself as LCMS. LCMS are the ones who financed the ***Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich ***Greek Lexicon (BDAG) which gives the gloss for hELKW in John 6:44 as: 2. to draw a pers. in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract,

Another sense is “1. to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw” but that is not the sense given for John 6:44. BDAG gives a parallel example for this sense with Je 31:3:
NAS Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore** I have drawn you with lovingkindness **.

Thus this is an attraction and not a dragging. What the text does unequivocally say is that it is necessary to be drawn by the Father to Jesus to come to Jesus. It does not say that one must come to Jesus if the Father draws them.

 

[Philthy]

In time I’ll master the quote feature.

You almost had it! Once you select quote(which you did with my previous post) simply left click below the quoted phrase to begin typing your response…

The question didn’t really go over my head - I’m just not sure how to respond to it. Everything is by God’s grace, I suppose including this dialogue. Our free will is real and our choices are consequential, but our nature is corrupt. If left to our oun devices we will sin. How is that real freedom?

Our freedom is real, but it is imperfect. It is perfected only by grace. We have the choice to reject God’s grace. That’s why people go to Hell. If our choices didnt affect our eternal destiny, what would be the point of dialogue? What would be the point of preaching the Gospel? What would be the point of you being here? Why would God will you to wonder about the topic, be confused over it and have a discussion on it if it’s ultimately irrelevant? It makes no sense.
God does draw us, and without that drawing none of us would be saved - but that is not the whole story. The Gospel is either accepted or rejected based FIRST OF ALL upon God’s grace drawing us to it (“I will draw all men”) and secondly upon our allowing that grace to transform us. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,” Deut 30:19 The choice still exists, and we must be faithful in making the choice to follow God’s calling in our hearts. To believe that we are all robots with respect to our salvation is a great insult to what it means to be created in God’s image and a great insult to the life and death of our Lord who freely chose to redeem us.
:

 

[ryanoneil]

Adams state prior to the fall may or may not have been completely free. After the fall our will has been corrupted. We are free to choose - sin.
The paradox of God’s sacrificing himself to appease himself for our sin which by nature we commit is something that is beyond out comprehension, but we can thank God for it.

Of course we are free to choose sin. We have the proclivity to commit sin, and often succumbs to sin, but we are not totally depraved.

 

[ryanoneil]

**“Because I called you and you refused, I stretched out my hand, and there was none that regarded.” Prov. 1;24

“If you be willing and will harken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. But if you will not, and you will provoke me to wrath, the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.” Isa. 1;19-20**

God’s grace moves us to Him and prepares us to receive His grace. Then He sends us grace. If we do not resist the grace, then the grace works in and through us to accomplish God’s end, in cooperation with our free will. But we can resist the grace. When man habitually resists God’s grace so that He places himself in opposition to God, God withdraws His grace and allows the person to fall away. Thus, God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned as a punishment for their rejection of grace, as His justice exacts.

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Rom 11:20-22)