Free Will

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blase6 said:
What you posted contains absolutely nothing to refute that the choice of the will is based on which motive appears best. When a person commits a sin, it is because the motive to commit that sin was more appealing to the will than to not commit it. When a person commits a good act, it is because they were predisposed to see the motive for that act to be most desirable. So that the will chooses the most appealing motive is still obvious.
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So that’s why they chose Hitler? Because he was the best choice? I doubt that we always choose what appears best.
 
Tomdstone said:
So that’s why they chose Hitler? Because he was the best choice? I doubt that we always choose what appears best.
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Of course they chose Hitler because he appeared best! You are thinking that what appears best has to be best in reality. It does not.
 
blase6 said:
The “real world” is our inner world. We infer the existence of the physical world from our perceptions but our primary datum and sole certainty is our mind. We have power that material things lack: consciousness, insight and control of our environment. So it is a mistake to assume we are subject to the same causal laws as inanimate objects. Persons are not things. As Pascal remarked, our greatness is based on our power of thought. It is irrational to imagine thought is a mechanical process we can’t control because we know the limitations of computers. If our mind were programmed down to the last detail we would have no guarantee that any of our conclusions are trustworthy. The truth makes us free but we have to be free to recognise the truth!
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The spiritual world is not exempt from causation. The causes are persons! Otherwise God too would be subject to causation. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness because not only are we made in God’s image but we also responsible for our choices and decisions. Things are not. The body is subject to physical laws but nothing can chain the mind… unless we enslave ourselves by imposing invisible fetters on ourselves. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness; otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said “The truth shall make you free”…
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blase6 said:
What you posted contains absolutely nothing to refute that the choice of the will is based on which motive appears best. When a person commits a sin, it is because the motive to commit that sin was more appealing to the will than to not commit it. When a person commits a good act, it is because they were predisposed to see the motive for that act to be most desirable. So that the will chooses the most appealing motive is still obvious.
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The Holy Spirit provides to the conscience what is actually the best choice, not what appears to be the best choice. So choice it is not based upon “which motive appears best”.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE
1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47
47 GS [Gaudium et spes] 16.
Gaudium et spes
16. In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.(9) Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.(10) In a wonderful manner conscience reveals that law which is fulfilled by love of God and neighbor.(11) In fidelity to conscience, Christians are joined with the rest of men in the search for truth, and for the genuine solution to the numerous problems which arise in the life of individuals from social relationships. Hence the more right conscience holds sway, the more persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and strive to be guided by the objective norms of morality. Conscience frequently errs from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity. The same cannot be said for a man who cares but little for truth and goodness, or for a conscience which by degrees grows practically sightless as a result of habitual sin.
 
blase6 said:
Of course they chose Hitler because he appeared best! You are thinking that what appears best has to be best in reality. It does not.
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I doubt it. In many cases a choice is forced or you are pressured to make a certain choice, but it does not appear best to you. A lot of people thought that Ron Paul was the best choice for President. But they will not vote for a third party candidate, even though the third party candidate is the best choice. They thought that McCain was a worse choice than Ron Paul, but they voted for McCain anyway. Many people know it is better to eat fruits and vegetables rather than cheesecake. But they eat the cheesecake, not because it is the best choice, but because of the inclination to make the bad choice of eating too much sugar.
 
Tomdstone said:
I doubt it. In many cases a choice is forced or you are pressured to make a certain choice, but it does not appear best to you. A lot of people thought that Ron Paul was the best choice for President. But they will not vote for a third party candidate, even though the third party candidate is the best choice. They thought that McCain was a worse choice than Ron Paul, but they voted for McCain anyway. Many people know it is better to eat fruits and vegetables rather than cheesecake. But they eat the cheesecake, not because it is the best choice, but because of the inclination to make the bad choice of eating too much sugar.
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And the pressure to act against one’s initial convictions is another motive which may appear best. In the case of voting for McCain when one would rather vote for Ron Paul, the fact that Ron Paul is not very popular and would, in all likelihood, not be elected, is a strong enough motive to override one’s liking of Ron Paul as a person.

In the end, the option chosen is what always appeared best.
 
blase6 said:
It is foolish to assume that the spiritual world is exempt from the system of causation. It should be plainly evident. Actually, persons are

things, except things that have self-awareness and awareness of the spiritual. This is where belief in the soul comes from, since people do not understand why awareness exists. Nowhere in that is free will necessary for spiritual awareness.The spiritual world is not exempt from causation. The causes are persons! Otherwise God too would be subject to causation. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness because not only are we made in God’s image but we also responsible for our choices and decisions. Things are not. The body is subject to physical laws but nothing can chain the mind… unless we enslave ourselves by imposing invisible fetters on ourselves. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness; otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said “The truth shall make you free”…
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No response!..
 
blase6 said:
Oh, so everything in this world is deterministic and logical, but somehow, persons are an exception, just because it feels that way.
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It’s not a matter of feeling but logic. the keyword is “everything”. The body is subject to physical laws but nothing can chain the mind… unless we enslave ourselves by imposing invisible fetters on ourselves.

The spiritual world is not exempt from causation. The causes are persons! Otherwise God would be subject to causation. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness because not only are we made in God’s image but we also responsible for our choices and decisions. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness; otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said “The truth shall make you free”…
 
tonyrey said:
It’s not a matter of feeling but logic. the keyword is “everything”. The body is subject to physical laws but nothing can chain the mind… unless we enslave ourselves by imposing invisible fetters on ourselves.

The spiritual world is not exempt from causation. The causes are persons! Otherwise God would be subject to causation. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness because not only are we made in God’s image but we also responsible for our choices and decisions. Free will is necessary for spiritual awareness; otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said “The truth shall make you free”…
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All conceivable entities in reality, physical or spiritual, can fairly be described as “things”. The fact that some “things” have self-awareness and spiritual awareness, and thus we call those “persons”, doesn’t change the fact that they are bound by causality like everything else. Once again, there is the massive assumption that persons are exempt from the laws of reality!
 
Tomdstone said:
So there is no proof.
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Of course there is. I just don’t know how to show you how it can work. From my experience of reality, my proposition about how the will works appears to be correct. But apparently, I do not have the right words to explain it to you. Or you are holding to a presupposition which I am not.
 
tonyrey said:
blase6;12621892:
Only if one subscribes to materialism - an substantiated theory that requires justification.

Materalism claims that only the material exists. Since I acknowledge the existence of the spiritual, I am not a materialist.
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To use your own terminology, that is a massive assumption - that also requires justification.

Some things are so obvious and basic that it is hard to explain why they can be that way. I can see that in both the spiritual and physical world, basic metaphysical properties are the same, such as causality.

To be precise, the laws of **physical **reality. Are you by any chance a materialist? :confused:

Causality is a property of the spiritual as well as the physical. It is just more obvious in the physical.
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blase6 said:
Only if one subscribes to materialism - an unsubstantiated theory that requires justification.
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You seem to believe spiritual reality is based on material reality.
Some things are so obvious and basic that it is hard to explain why they can be that way. I can see that in both the spiritual and physical world, basic metaphysical properties are the same, such as causality.
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Your view is not shared by the Catechism:

377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self.
Causality is a property of the spiritual as well as the physical. It is just more obvious in the physical.
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So you don’t believe we are the prime causes of our actions? Just links in a chain of causes? Is God also subject to physical causes?
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tonyrey said:
You seem to believe spiritual reality is based on material reality.

No, but I believe that qualities which are not physical are shared by both “dimensions”. Causality is not restricted to the physical.

Your view is not shared by the Catechism:

377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self.

And that comes from the presupposition that freedom exists. Which I fail to see.

So you don’t believe we are the prime causes of our actions? Just links in a chain of causes? Is God also subject to physical causes?

**We are not the ultimate cause of our own actions, that is correct. Only God is the ultimate cause of everything. Assuming that God could create an object which could choose from several motives without bias, then he would not be determining the outcome of the action. But it still would not be freedom, because it would only be random.

God’s eternal act comes from his nature of being goodness. (Of course, the Church teaching is that God has free will, but from a purely philosophical perspective, I don’t yet see the necessity of this.**
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