Free Will

[Usagi]

I guess then that just have a different definition of “Free Will” than everyone else.

Your definition of free will is a thing that has never existed. No human has ever experienced complete, consequence-free freedom of action. Philosophers have spent millennia arguing over whether we can choose differently or whether our actions are predetermined by external forces. Your version of free will would never have inspired such debate because it is manifestly false. The Church has not been teaching you that you have that kind of free will and then pulling a bait-and-switch. A moment’s thought would make it obvious that no one has your kind of free will.

 

[Usagi]

I can do whatever I want.

… without consequences. That’s the hangup. You can already make a great many choices (though the limits of physical law mean you can’t literally accomplish anything), but you do not believe yourself free unless your choices have no undesired results. That is not a kind of free will that anyone (certainly not the Church) has ever claimed to exist. Free will is the ability to turn either left or right as you choose. The fact that only one of the two options leads to your desired destination is not an abrogation of your freedom to choose the other one, though it will likely influence your actual choice.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

… without consequences. That’s the hangup. You can already make a great many choices (though the limits of physical law mean you can’t literally accomplish anything), but you do not believe yourself free unless your choices have no undesired results. That is not a kind of free will that anyone (certainly not the Church) has ever claimed to exist. Free will is the ability to turn either left or right as you choose. The fact that only one of the two options leads to your desired destination is not an abrogation of your freedom to choose the other one, though it will likely influence your actual choice.

OK, suppose (in theory) I wanted to live a very libertine lifestyle. Such a lifestyle is very much in conflict with the teachings of the Church. Now, I have the “free will” to live a life like that if I want to but because of my sinful ways I would most likely wind up in Hell when I die.

Not a pleasant prospect.

So, do I really have Free Will? I can do things my way or God’s way, but if I don’t do it God’s way I’m doomed. So I don’t really have much of a choice; do I?

 

[goout]

OK, suppose (in theory) I wanted to live a very libertine lifestyle. Such a lifestyle is very much in conflict with the teachings of the Church. Now, I have the “free will” to live a life like that if I want to but because of my sinful ways I would most likely wind up in Hell when I die.

Not a pleasant prospect.

So, do I really have Free Will? I can do things my way or God’s way, but if I don’t do it God’s way I’m doomed. So I don’t really have much of a choice; do I?

Yes you do have free will.

You are confusing free will with the consequences of free will.

 

[Aloysium]

OK, suppose (in theory) I wanted to live a very libertine lifestyle. Such a lifestyle is very much in conflict with the teachings of the Church. Now, I have the “free will” to live a life like that if I want to but because of my sinful ways I would most likely wind up in Hell when I die.

Not a pleasant prospect.

So, do I really have Free Will? I can do things my way or God’s way, but if I don’t do it God’s way I’m doomed. So I don’t really have much of a choice; do I?

I think you realize that the situation is even worse than you present here.

You know when someone says they are sorry, but by their tone it is clear that they don’t mean it? They might as well not have even bothered, right?

I’m not suggesting you become a libertine.

In the words of Shakespeare’s Hamlet:

Oh, throw away the worser part of it,
And live the purer with the other half.
Good night—but go not to mine uncle’s bed.
Assume a virtue if you have it not.
That monster, custom, who all sense doth eat,
Of habits devil, is angel yet in this:
That to the use of actions fair and good
He likewise gives a frock or livery
That aptly is put on. Refrain tonight,
And that shall lend a kind of easiness
To the next abstinence, the next more easy.
For use almost can change the stamp of nature,
And either rein the devil or throw him out
With wondrous potency. Once more, good night,
And when you are desirous to be blessed,
I’ll blessing beg of you.

The English translation being:

Then throw away the worse half, and live a purer life with the other! Good night to you. But don’t go to my uncle’s bed tonight. At least pretend to be virtuous, even if you’re not. Habit is a terrible thing, in that it’s easy to get used to doing evil without feeling bad about it. But it’s also a good thing, in that being good can also become a habit.
Say no to sex tonight, and that will make it easier to say no the next time, and still easier the time after that. Habit can change even one’s natural instincts, and either rein in the devil in us, or kick him out. Once again, good night to you, and when you want to repent, I’ll ask you for your blessing too.

In terms of being virtuous, let’s do it for the good of the other. Let’s not use them or treat them like an object, a sack of meat. Let’s not hurt them. Even if they consent, why don’t we abstain for their good, to keep them from hell.

Sin dooms us all. Christ’s mercy is stronger than His justice. He wants us to hand over our sins to Him on the cross that we might be saved. How can you not love the guy?

 

[John_Martin]

I think we need to explain how free will differs from desire which implies a physical urge…

Let’s try an answer from Thomas: “When we desire a particular thing, we do not only will what we desire, but we also will whatever enables us to attain it.”

Desire is a passion of appetite; Will is the term used to indicate the intellectual appetite. Whenever there is knowledge of the desired thing, it is a movement of the intellectual appetite, even if also in the sensitive appetite.
If there is desire, that is the intention of the will, “automatically”. If you desire something, you are in the state of willing it, and moving toward union with it.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

Desire is not sinful in itself.
It seeks the good.
All goodness arises from and is to be found in God.
The ultimate fulfillment of all our desires is God.
The will can be corrupted, holding a specific good above God.
Whereas in God we find joy, more life and more freedom,
these lesser, false gods will lead to the slavery, suffering, and death.
Through our actions, we choose to follow our will to sin or to live in accordance with what has been revealed - to love one another as ourselves and God above all else.

 

[goout]

I think you realize that the situation is even worse than you present here.

You know when someone says they are sorry, but by their tone it is clear that they don’t mean it? They might as well not have even bothered, right?

I’m not suggesting you become a libertine.

In the words of Shakespeare’s Hamlet:

The English translation being:

In terms of being virtuous, let’s do it for the good of the other. Let’s not use them or treat them like an object, a sack of meat. Let’s not hurt them. Even if they consent, why don’t we abstain for their good, to keep them from hell.

Sin dooms us all. Christ’s mercy is stronger than His justice. He wants us to hand over our sins to Him on the cross that we might be saved. How can you not love the guy?

Love can seem very dry at times. Doing the right thing for others is it’s own reward.

 

[Remar99]

In all these discussions, there seems to be a blurring between free will and freedom. The terms are not synonymous.

CCC 1730 says St. Irenaeus said man “is created with free will and is master over his acts.”

CCC 1731 says “Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act…”

Man abused his freedom and directed his free will to act and choose the “apple in the garden,” thus committing the Original Sin.