Freedom vs social control

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niceatheist

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Perhaps one of the biggest reasons I abandoned religion, and still struggle with it to this day, is the social control so inherent in organized religion. I don’t mean to repeat the fallacious argument that religion was created as a means of social control, but rather how it used by some believers to bully other believers.

There have been threads of late on yoga, Harry Potter, and of course, endless threads on how being a Democrat or being an opponent of the President, make you a bad Catholic.

It strikes me that for some , religion is a legalistic entity, that either you abide by not only certain rules, but also that you stifle all intellectual curiousity, and further that even non believers must be forced to abide by the religion’s rules, or at least the rules as they it.

I came out of a religion where social control was a very real thing, and I view this kind of religious faith as dangerous, and I can’t imagine ever abiding by someone telling me what to read or who to vote for, and yet that seems to be the tendency with some here.
 
As someone in pastoral ministry, I can tell you that I have absolutely zero control over anyone. My biggest frustration most of the time is that people simply don’t care about their faith, don’t go to Mass, don’t live the Church’s teachings on marriage and sexuality, don’t educate their children in the faith.

The Catholic Church certainly has rules and obligations, but nobody puts a gun to the head of the faithful and makes them fall in line. It’s based entirely on personal volition and accountability.

As for intellectual curiosity, I read, I study, I learn all kinds of different things. I study different religions, philosophy, science, sports strategy, music, movies, all sorts of things. Most priests I know are like that, as are many of my lay friends.

-Fr ACEGC
 
Sorry you see bullying here. Hopefully all will share this space to spread truth and do it with love. I came from a place that you describe yourself to be in, except I have always believed in God. I however did not believe in evil. And it was a turbulent time for me. I dabbled in lots of New age differnet areas. embracing what I thought was “freedom” , exploring “mind-opening” techniques/substances, practices, affirmations, reike, tarot, crystals, psychics, you name it… And I know now it was dangerous and I believe I was under attack after opening myself up in that way. As far as for Harry Potter and yoga in particular, , I think it is to be acknowledged as sorcery and yoga coming from hindu roots. It is clearly stated not of the good and warned against in the bible. Simply put I think it can pique interests to dabble into the darkness if it doesn’t directly connect the person with such. Just my two cents. Also I come from a background with not much authority, and now as an adult, I can appreciate the usually not so complicated or demanding canon law and doctrine, and enjoy giving my life, struggles, joys, hopes, fears, all to the Living God and let Him do with it all what he will. I do not claim my life, or the blessings of each child as my own. Rather I hope to be an offering to Him and help save souls if He wills it :D. I hope this doesn’t bother you, my comment. Just rambling… Also now I realize Evil does exist and we are in a Spiritual battle and I have first hand witnessed the power of the Rosary in particular in my life. Hope this helps? Take care.
 
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So you think coercive religious proclamations like “vote for Donald Trump or you’re a bad Christian” or “read Harry Potter and you’re celebrating witchcraft” are the kinds of social rules I should live by? This is what I’m talking about. I’m talking about people using their faith as a bludgeon to force others within their faith group to do what they want, and perhaps even to extend the length of the bludgeon to those outside their group. I can easily find posts on this very site where people advocate for banning the birth control bill and repealing gay marriage, not to mention no fault divorce, if not divorce entire. Their view of their faith is that of a stick with which to beat others.
 
I’m not going to not read Harry Potter because someone else fears it. I’ve read th Communist Manifesto without turning into a Communist, and I’ve pagan mythology without ending up worshipping Thor, Jupiter or Krishna. The idea that I have to hide my eyes from certain kinds of learning or entertainments because they’re somehow dangerous is alien to my intellectual curiousity, as is someone telling me how to vote.
 
Thank you. That was very informative. I’m glad intellectual curiosity isn’t stifled.
 
Not much fear about it for me. Just wisdom from experience and prudence while raising children in the culture. It’s proper that the church warns against these things, especially in a time where relativism is widely adapted. To mark things for what they are, sorcery, witchcraft, ehm who not to vote for, well it is sad we have such pressing issues, but I agree with stating the fact that a person who is catholic can not be pro abortion. It really is just that simple.
 
If I cannot weight candidates save threw one tiny, myopic lens, then that’s just social control being used to blatantly partisan purposes. And that’s one of my stumbling blocks. Why should I surrender my free will, my inherent freedom, just to benefit a political candidate?
 
There probably are a lot of people who come off wrong; they could practice some gentleness. I wouldn’t say you’re celebrating witchcraft, however putting yourself in near proximity of doing so, which I have learned with any other sin, is not a good idea for me. Every life is reverent and sacred and celebrated in our faith, is why we would want to banish the birth control pill. It is a natural law to preserve life, most people recognize this; And birth control pills have been revealed to cause abortion.
 
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So you believe birth controls should be banned, that your own religious beliefs should be coercively applied to non-believers?
 
I would not nor would the church will for you to do that, but rather to use your freedom of vote in good conscience for the good of all. And drawing clear lines and purposefully not supporting a candidate who goes against the sanctity of life. The church’s mission is to protect the most vulnerable.
 
So I have no free will on the matter at all. I either abstain, or vote for who you say the Church-approved candidate is?
 
I have no authority whatsoever. Not in the church or polictics. As I repeat, use your freedom of vote in good conscience. You will do what you will. But maybe try coming from a more understanding view, without the negative charge, with an open heart about the church’s teachings and ponder these things; like are the “controls” or “rules” anything that I actually see as bad ? Or are they reasonable???
 
I think being told who to vote for and what not to read is something I’ll be honest I find coercive and violate my own basic ethics. The idea that the Church, or at least some members of the church feel they have the right to tell me what to do is something I could never really handle. If it is about social control, then it is a step too far.
 
I don’t know if that is the first step that should be taken, to strip away something that is a result of many underlying issues. But I hope for a future where life is revered and not something to be snuffed out before birth.
 
The church is an umbrella that a person is never held under, rather it is there offering shelter for anyone who does wish to stand under. Our faith is much more about our relationship with God and others than it is about rules or anything. Those are just details. What we really want to do is care for life, and give glory to God. I hope for you that you will have a small opening and I do think you are seeking Him, by even having this convo. You are trying to hash it out. I get it. I have struggled with certain teachings of the church from time to time. Currently I agree with all the teachings I have heard. I believe in Scripture being the word of God, and I believe in sacred tradition.
 
Thank you. I’m honestly asking, and not trying to set anyone up or mock any belief. It’s more the application of those beliefs, and in particular the imposing of your beliefs on others.
 
No problem, I also wouldn’t want to mock or set anyone up. The whole, take away the birth control to me, is like correcting a mistake. Our culture has not seemingly benefited from contraception. And it seems to be the root of abortion; which is morally wrong in every circumstance." I don’t say hey, lady’, you’re bad! you did that" No. Rather. I am saddened that women having abortions suffer the grief of losing a child, I really believe they go through that in the dark, after being sold the lie that abortion is okay, it’s not a child, and the like. I have had personal experiences of my own and witnessed other’s that have led me where I am.
 
edward_george1 said:
As someone in pastoral ministry, I can tell you that I have absolutely zero control over anyone. My biggest frustration most of the time is that people simply don’t care about their faith, don’t go to Mass, don’t live the Church’s teachings on marriage and sexuality, don’t educate their children in the faith.

The Catholic Church certainly has rules and obligations, but nobody puts a gun to the head of the faithful and makes them fall in line. It’s based entirely on personal volition and accountability.
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I am sure that you are 100% right about your own practice and intentions. This has been my experience with most in Church leadership positions.

But when the Church has become politically influential, Father, can you say that it has generally acted in line with your approach? The Church has largely lost political power butcher it has held it has it not often sought to impose Catholic behaviours on others? Does it not continue to do this by seeking legal restrictions on things like homosexual acts?
 
I came into the church in my 20’s and my experience was that my family and friends were using social control and bullying to get me to leave the church. They were the ones arm twisting and, applying pressure to change my mind.

Growing up and looking back, the people who were the kindest to me, the most caring, the ones to speak without self interest, were Catholics. These were neighbors, parents of friends, etc. I am grateful to them.

When a person comes on a Catholic forum and asks Catholics what they think, don’t be surprised that they answer in a Catholic way. The place is called Catholic Answers.
 
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