Freedom vs social control

[LeafByNiggle]

It is nuanced to be sure, but at the end of the day the church still desires civil law to reflect its own theological positions.

“Desires” and “works toward in the civic square” are two different things. The Church desires that all should come to know Christ and attend mass, but I would be very surprised to see any coercive measures proposed to accomplish that end, and indeed all right-thinking Catholics, and especially the clergy, would condemn such an effort to coerce society into attending mass.

 

[niceatheist]

So is a Catholic in good standing permitted to not be an anti-SSM or pro-life activist?

 

[goout]

I came out of a religion where social control was a very real thing, and I view this kind of religious faith as dangerous, and I can’t imagine ever abiding by someone telling me what to read or who to vote for, and yet that seems to be the tendency with some here.

Well,there you go. You unfortunately had negative experiences with religion. I am sorry for that.

It’s a good idea sometimes to question your intellectual framework and try to assimilate other viewpoints.
The whole point of Christianity, speaking very generally, is about freedom. Liberation.
But you have to realize that freedom is not a moral void, any more than a stream can flow without banks to direct it’s energy.

 

[niceatheist]

I’m a doubter at heart, and try to hold my own beliefs to the same level of skepticism as I do anyone else’s. But the coercive elements of any ideology, religious or political, always fill me with concern. Obviously, no society can function without some common set of morals, but in a free society those morals have to be the product of some degree of consensus, and like it or not, that consensus will inevitably shift over time, and often in directions that will not satisfy some people. It’s not my intent to drag this into an abortion, SSM or euthenasia debate, but rather to explore how a Catholic can hold true to their own beliefs while not demanding civil society bend to those beliefs. I’m not suggesting Catholics remain silent about their beliefs. That is also a violation of the tenet of a free society. That is why I don’t believe a baker, as an example, should be forced to write pro-SSM messages on a cake, or that pro-lifers on campus should be forced into silence.

 

[Annie]

But the coercive elements of any ideology, religious or political, always fill me with concern.

The people with whom you agree also have coercive elements. For example, a few years ago, some people decided that homosexual people should be allowed to marry each other. Altho several referenda failed in the states, they took it to court and now it is the law of the land.

Marriage forms the bedrock of a stable society. The reason it does so is that marriage is the best system for creating and raising the future of the society.

Now I happen to believe that marriage was already 75+% destroyed by birth control and no-fault divorce, so I don’t say SS marriage destroyed the institution.

And at this point l would say that making it illegal would be more destructive to society than letting it be, but that doesn’t mean I think our society is going in the right direction by allowing it.

However, the imposition of yet another thing that is destructive of marriage is something that affects all of society, including me, and it was imposed coercively. Moreover, consider how I would be treated in your circles if I expressed my beliefs? If I suggested they read books about the evils of birth control, abortion, no-fault divorce, and same-sex marriage.

Someone is going to be coerced, no matter how you look at it.

 

[niceatheist]

The difference being no one is coercing you to get married to someone of your gender.

 

[edwest211]

Thank you very much. While I understand how some see religion as controlling, all I can say is no one needs my permission to live how they want or do what they want. A priest won’t be pounding on your door on Monday asking why you missed Mass on Sunday. What some regard as legalistic is just part of a freely entered into series of obligations. Jesus said, “If you love me keep my commandments.” Simple. The problem, or challenge, is staying on the straight and narrow. When we fail, God’s infinite mercy is waiting for us in Confession.

I know people from other faith backgrounds and people who are lapsed. The outside, secular world is very good at pressing its views here and elsewhere among the public. I’ve heard people call others of their group ‘self-hating’ for disagreeing with this or that bit of politics.

I read a lot, and study a lot. I had a friend who had to keep ‘religion shopping.’ I studied whatever group he encountered. One problem with intellectual curiosity: without a yardstick by which to compare, one may end up believing something that isn’t true. There are various New Age books out there that claim or seem, to be new but they are usually based on very old, established ideas and concepts. Newer variants just change and/or add words. They may offer a lifestyle choice that is spiritually harmful.

I was watching a TV interview with a priest and an atheist celebrity. The priest told the interviewer that atheists were among his friends. Of course, I know a few people living like pagans, including a few Catholics, but God is watching over them and I pray for them.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

So is a Catholic in good standing permitted to not be an anti-SSM or pro-life activist?

Not sure what you mean by “activist”, but yes. Catholics are not instructed to take up placards and march. And despite claims to the contrary from some people in this forum, they are not instructed on who they must vote for.

 

[edwest211]

When politics replaces religion, it becomes a problem. Yes, Catholics are required to tell the truth about marriage and the truth about abortion. Some, I’m not pointing to anyone here, would prefer that Catholics shut up.

 

[vsedriver]

the social control so inherent in organized religion

as this is a Catholic forum can you give a modern example of the Catholic Church using social control?

 

[niceatheist]

I’m not speaking so much of the Church itself, which I view as a moderately"big tent", but perhaps more of the peer pressure of certain individuals and groups. The Church is by no means as coercive as certain Protestant groups.

 

[Annie]

I don’t want to get into a discussion about LGBT rights; I used that as an example of how each group in society is coercive to one extent or another, exclusionary to one extent or another.

The fact that I personally am not so forced does not mean I am unaffected. I live in a society in which children are forced into a vast social experiment, in which children are placed in less than ideal circumstances, in which the schools I am forced to support with my taxes force children to learn about this sort of thing, and in which people can be forced from their jobs for not adhering to the dogma, and in which certain lines of intellectual inquiry are closed off.

 

[Pattylt]

@niceatheist, I think one thing you need to realize is that every religion, political party, social organization has certain people that that for some reason feel that all of society MUST follow their thinking. It isn’t unique to Catholics or to religion. Some people just can not envision that their beliefs shouldn’t be the norm. There are even atheists included in this mindset.

Where religion differs, and only slightly, is that it’s an authoritarian organization with great respect for its leaders. Other organizations have their authoritarians, too, it’s just not as tied within the moral realm as religion is. This makes the “fanatics” a more visible entity…a more vocal one…but you can find these personalities everywhere.

People range on a spectrum of commitment and it’s the most committed that you hear from. Just like CAF, the more committed voices are here, yet look how many members aren’t supporting the ideas that religious beliefs should be the law of the land. There are thousands of every religion that aren’t trying to force their beliefs, either. Plus, we tend to notice the voices that grate against our views much more than the quieter voices of those thousands of others.

Everyone needs to remember that the views of the loudest Catholics, atheists, evangelicals, etc. are the voices of those that have the most serious determination to force their beliefs but it isn’t the beliefs of all of them, by a long shot.

I do think the leaders of religions, political parties, etc. need to be aware of how much influence they MAY have and be aware of this. They can feed the extremes without being aware of the influence they really have. I think Trump has been careless of this, not realizing how his views can be taken to extremes.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

@niceatheist, I think one thing you need to realize is that every religion, political party, social organization has certain people that that for some reason feel that all of society MUST follow their thinking. It isn’t unique to Catholics or to religion.

One of the best examples of such an organization is the NRA. Look at how that one organization has forced upon our society a toleration of guns that exceeds any other nation and have blocked attempts from those outside of their “religion” to restrict guns.

 

[Aquinas11]

Perhaps one of the biggest reasons I abandoned religion, and still struggle with it to this day, is the social control so inherent in organized religion. I don’t mean to repeat the fallacious argument that religion was created as a means of social control, but rather how it used by some believers to bully other believers.

Social control is inherent in Atheist Communism, not organized religion. Atheist Communists used “social control” to slaughter 150,000,000 of their own people (outside of war) in past 100 years alone (73M China, 59M Russia, etc)

Christianity killed a few thousand people during Inquisition 500+ years ago

Its very obvious to me where the true danger of “social control” lies in 2019.

 

[Pattylt]

Funny you should mention the NRA. Years ago, I was a member. I took many NRA Sharpshooter courses and enjoyed their agenda of promoting sportsmen and safety. Then, things changed. They became focused on politics and the legalities of ownership of weapons instead of the tools for hunting and marksmanship and safety.

I canceled my membership as this was NOT why I was a member and wanted no part in the political maneuvering of weapons vs rifles and pistols. The amount of influence that organization has is very bothersome and I think some of their tactics are deplorable. They didn’t use to be political, now they are. And yes, they have their fanatics as well!

 

[edwest211]

The influence of any group is carefully measured by political analysts and Hollywood, just to give two examples. An advertising trade publication recently ran an article where advertising analysts do not just want to know what consumer preferences are but how they think. This can be used as a control system as well that operates under the cover of people paid to influence others while posing as “real” average people. I’ve seen it here and elsewhere. Influencing, up to and including controlling other people has been going on for a long time. The king wanted to know what the peasants were grumbling about and wanted, in most cases, to keep them happy, and ignorant, at least about certain things.

 

[vsedriver]

perhaps more of the peer pressure of certain individuals and groups.

you get that with any group of people regardless of whether it is a religious group or not. Happens in sporting groups, clubs etc. Has nothing to do with religion per se.

 

[Pattylt]

Gosh Ed, I agree with you!

Of course advertising is trying to sway your opinion on a product for a profit motive. YouTube is full of “influencers”…they actually call them that…to push products, ideas, political sides…and more.

Some people are just immune to them, probably most realize they are being persuaded, especially if they agree with the message and some take the message so much to heart that they condemn anyone else that isn’t on board. I’ve seen women that get fanatical about certain brands of makeup and condemn those that don’t use it.

The question is why do some percentage of people become radicalized to one particular point of view and become unable to even consider another? Most people aren’t like that. They don’t insist that everyone else must think the same and try to legislate their view.

 

[JanetF]

What do you do when someone makes these sorts of claims, along with appeals to authority, and you’re a Catholic?

Take it with a grain of salt. Recognize that demonic possession is possible through all sorts of avenues, and try to be charitable toward the person making the claims, but move on with my life. Read Harry Potter, knowing that it’s not real magic and don’t go searching to join up with witches/wizards to see if the spells really work.

As for Yoga, use it for exercise without the religious chanting.

Don’t temp Satan, recognize that he’s real and he means business, but don’t under-emphasize God’s power either. The winner takes it all, and we already know who the winner will be–eventually.