Freemasonry A Evil Group

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Roy5 said:
GOLLY - WERE THE MASONS TO BLAME FOR THAT?
Code: 
 JAM070406 (#175) seems to want to blame the Masons for pushing God out of the schools, the nativity scenes off lawns, etc. Nonsense.

  To begin with, children in school do pledge to the flag and 'one nation under God'.  I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Masons supported adding 'under God' as was done when Ike was president. I don't believe he was a Mason, but Truman was. And so were (and are) a number of other presidents and other key US leaders. 

   Late each June on St. John's Day (John the Baptist) Masons process into churches across the nation and participate in Christian ceremonies. I remember how they wear their little aprons, etc. So, to make them out as anti-Christian is absurd. I believe that one of the 10 Commandments forbids false testimony.

    Like many others, I have been sorry to see Christians traditions removed from public places. The Masons have had nothing to do with that. Many of the Founding Fathers were Masons and they were Christians. Some of my relatives have been Masons as well as fervent church members. As I've said already, I'm not attracted to the Masons personally, but calling them as an "evil group" is unfair and unwise. It smacks of the type of prejudice that was used against Catholicism in America for many years.

     Part of the problem is that in Europe some Masons were actively anti-Catholic years and years ago. I believe I've read that Mozart was one of them. But that was then and there. For Catholics to hold on to such prejudices is unfortunate. As I've already noted, the KofC and Masons have held joint events in this area. I think that's great and assists in breaking down walls of bigotry and misunderstanding. Some of you sound a lot like closed-minded  Protestants I've known who want so badly to hold on to their biases. It's time to put aside such silliness and work toward a genuine brotherhood/sisterhood among Americans and others of all races and creeds.

      God bless the whole world - no exceptions.
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In my own opinion,which admittedly, is not based on facts but on my honest opinion alone,I think freemasonry has done Christianity in,in this country. I think it is destroying itself here although it may be working the world over now. I think the much cherished constitution is eating itself through the freemason ideals of acceptance of everything. I think the constitution is set up to accept and allow freedom of everything eventually. Freemasons seem to have to accept each others religions and meld them all together. They do not have nor do they want a concrete structure of religion as sound as Catholicism. Their system is bound for failure, just as all of the protestant churches chose the freedom to interpret christianity in whatever way they wanted. It has only ended in the fracturing and refracturing of different denominations and it will never end until everyone has their own personal idea of what Christianity is,Instead of 1 unified Catholic church. It is like adolescents who want no discipline and have 'all the answers".I think eventually freemasonry will have to admit they are wrong and come home after they have made 1 Royal mess of the world. Who knows what century that may fall in. Like I ,said this is my own personal opinion and that is all. Does anybody,perhaps an ex-mason,know what their true goal is anyway? For I do not. Please read the encylicals that were posted a few posts back.The pope called them evil.
 
I do not feel the freemasons as individuals are evil. I feel that the pope condems the practice of freemasonry.
 
Roy5 said:
GOLLY - WERE THE MASONS TO BLAME FOR THAT?
Code: 
 JAM070406 (#175) seems to want to blame the Masons for pushing God out of the schools, the nativity scenes off lawns, etc. Nonsense.
INonesense maby then again maby not on this I remain nutral till proof is furnished.
To begin with, children in school do pledge to the flag and ‘one nation under God’. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Masons supported adding ‘under God’ as was done when Ike was president. I don’t believe he was a Mason, but Truman was. And so were (and are) a number of other presidents and other key US leaders.
Several presidents were masons yes,
Code: 
   Late each June on St. John's Day (John the Baptist) Masons process into churches across the nation and participate in Christian ceremonies. I remember how they wear their little aprons, etc. So, to make them out as anti-Christian is absurd. I believe that one of the 10 Commandments forbids false testimony.
If masons are not ainti Christian then why would one put up with false gods in ones religions or group. I still have my little white lambskin apron.😛 Yes one should not give false testimony. One should also do some research on the group throgh reading though.
Code: 
    Like many others, I have been sorry to see Christians traditions removed from public places. The Masons have had nothing to do with that. Many of the Founding Fathers were Masons and they were Christians. Some of my relatives have been Masons as well as fervent church members. As I've said already, I'm not attracted to the Masons personally, but calling them as an "evil group" is unfair and unwise. It smacks of the type of prejudice that was used against Catholicism in America for many years.
Yes to see Christian traditions removed is sad. Yes many founding fathers were masons and Christian. Some were athiest also. What is the point. Majority of my family are masons on bolth sides. Masons as individuals are not evil tipicaly. Though there can be a very anti christian bias goup wide. The darker side of things can be evil. Read up on masonry. I came up with the title from some personal experience and research plus church teachings. More Church teachings than the other two though.
There is more than enough anti Catholicism to go around.
Code: 
     Part of the problem is that in Europe some Masons were actively anti-Catholic years and years ago. I believe I've read that Mozart was one of them. But that was then and there. For Catholics to hold on to such prejudices is unfortunate. As I've already noted, the KofC and Masons have held joint events in this area. I think that's great and assists in breaking down walls of bigotry and misunderstanding. Some of you sound a lot like closed-minded  Protestants I've known who want so badly to hold on to their biases. It's time to put aside such silliness and work toward a genuine brotherhood/sisterhood among Americans and others of all races and creeds.
Yes they are it is in America also though not as prevelant. Don’t know about Mozart. Can you site a source for the KofC and Masons working together. After all the KofC was formed to draw men from the loge. I know you express you say no interest in masonry. Roy you might need to learn first hand if Church teachings are not enough. Ask one they will get you a petition. It would be fun:rolleyes:A real educational experience.😃
Code: 
      God bless the whole world - no exceptions.
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DallasTexas said:
Dirk,

Thank you for your posting. This is the kind of information that I’m looking for.

However, I believe that much of the below comes from the Leo Taxil Hoax. …In the below passage from the King James version, Isaiah is not referring to Satan when he says lucifer…
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Hi guy, I have no Idea who Leo taxil is :), & I do not use the king james because of all the translation errors.

have you got a copy of morals & dogma coming to you yet? You really need to read it. Are you yet a 33rd degree? BTW we can take this to the Private Message leval if you want to exclude the public forum.
 
Roy5 said:
WHY DEMONIZE THE MASONS?
Code: 
This effort to demonize the Masons is silly. They are a highly respectable group who do excellent and self-sacrificing work through their hospitals, homes, etc. That they may have had some defects back in history somewhere likely is true, but nothing compared to the Inquisition instituted by the Catholic Church or some of the misdeeds of various Protestants in the distant past. 

  Frankly, I like the fact that the Masons receive members from all faiths that believe in God, such as Jews and Muslims as well as Christians. That's a big plus in my mind.....................................................
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DUDE you are a protastant. you have no idea what you are talking about. I am not trying to hurt you but this is a Catholic (therefore PROPER Christian) forum. The True Church Of Jesus Christ says that any man that joins the masonic order may NOT revice Holy Communion. Do you have ANY idea what is ment by this? This is serious stuff. Not the watered down doctrin of the protastant churches that chose to protest the teachings of the True Church of Jesus Christ.
 
Here I found this on the web. It is out of the morals and dogmas by Albert Pike. Here are the ten comandments of a mason.
The Masonic Ten Commandments
(OCR of Figure 12 pic)
Masonry has its decalogue, which is a law to its Initiates.

These are its Ten commandments:

I. God is the Eternal, Omnipotent, Immutable Wisdom and Supreme Intelligence and Exhaustless Love. Thou shalt adore, revere, and love Him! Thou shalt honor Him by practising the virtues!

II. Thy religion shall be to do good because it is a pleasure to thee, and not merly because it is a duty. That thou mayest become the friend of the wise man, thou shalt obey his precepts! Thy soul is immortal! Thou shalt do nothing to degrade it!

III. Thou shalt unceasingly war against vice! Thou shalt not do unto tohers that which thou wouldst not wish them to do unto thee! Thou shalt be submissive to thy fortunes, and keep burning the light of wisdom!

IV. Thou shalt honor thy parents! Thou shalt pay respect and homage to the aged! Thou shalt instruct the young! Thou shalt protect and defend infancy and innocence!

V. Thou shalt cherish thy wife and thy children! Thou shalt love thy country, and obey its laws!

VI. Thy friend shall be to thee a second self! Misfortune shall not estrange thee from him! Thou shalt do for his memory whatever thou wouldst do for him, if he were living!

VII. Thou shalt avoid and flee from insincere friendships! Thou shalt in everything refrain from excess. Thou shalt fear to be the cause of a stain on thy memory!

VIII. Thou shalt allow no passions to become thy master! Thou shalt make the passions of others profitable lessons to thyself! Thou shalt be indulgent to error!

IX. Thou shalt hear much: Thou shalt speak little: Thou shalt act well! Thou shalt forget injuries! Thou shalt render good for evil! Thou shalt not misuse either thy strength or thy superiority!

X. Thou shalt study to know men; that thereby thou mayest learn to know thyself! Thou shalt ever seek after virtue! Thou shalt be just! Thou shalt avoid idleness!

The Masonic Ten Commandments
(OCR of Figure 12 pic)

found it interesting. A “pagan” affiiated religion yet it has on the serfice what appears to be good comandments.🤷
 
KyivAndrew said:
Hey wait a minute. Sorry. I guess it’s true what they say about posting. You type quickly with good intentions and then after reading the post you quickly typed it seems wrongly worded. No I did not in anyway want to be SHORT with you. I’m just happy that an honest guy like you is posting. Typed words can’t express emotion so sorry. I didn’t mean anything and still am trying to keep up with what posts I’m responding to. This is causing exhaustion.

God Bless!
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First appology accepted. I have reread it and I think I was also a little overtired when reading it. Also as pointed out after this posting you are right the tie between the tepmplar knights and masonry is not there.

I still find it interesting though how when one scratches the serfice of masonry how it does not appear “intristicly evil”. Masonry on the serfice of it self appears especialy in America very Christian and moral from a social aspect and a secular life aspects.

A line from The Meaning of Masonry by W L Wilmshurst.
The meaning of Masonry, however, is a subject usually left entirely unexpounded and that accordingly remains largely unrealized by its members save such few as make it their private study; the authorities of what in all other respects is an elaborately organized and admirably controlled community have hitherto made no provision for explaining and teaching the “noble science” which Masonry proclaims itself to be and was certainly designed to impart.

Waht does every one think? I find the line interesting.
 
I did a google search on Freemasonry and found several good trustworthy sites on anti masonic that I have further searched out and they have presented strong biblical information on why masonry is anti biblicial and anti christian but I cant recall the names of the individual web sites at this time best thing to do is a search on freemasonry or is masory christian on google and check what comes back on the search . I was a 32 degree mason for over 25 years when I found this site and was very disturbed with all the lies and distortions of masonry once I checked them out
 
If some consider “telling it like it is” and agreeing with the Holy Pontiffs on the perciferousness of masonry to be “demonizing” and “anti-masonic”, so be it. If you don’t like it - so sorry, so sad. It is what it is - and I don’t apologize for it.

Really to decry bringing to light the truth of masonry as “demonizing” is as ridiculous as saying that the Bible is “demonizing” satan and his minions. :rolleyes:
 
Now we are all familiar with Albert Pikes qutoe about Lucifer. I have posted the below from a web page dealing with Lucifer and freemasonry. The posting below was a brief snipit from a much longer writing by Alber Pike. I am curios on others thoughts. I do highly suggest reading the whole thing.

masonicinfo.com/lucifer.htm

The scholars authorized by the militantly Catholic King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated from the Catholic Vulgate Bible produced largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, “Day star, son of the Dawn,” as “Lucifer,” and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and - ironically- the Prince of Darkness."

“So “Lucifer” is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.””

“And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say “Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God,” while others with knowledge of the Latin and Hebrew texts say, “No, Lucifer is the classical Roman name for the morning star, and now Jesus is the morning star.” This discussion can only anger certain fundamentalists. (I have at hand an evangelical tract from a Baptist church that says, “I believe in the Infallibility and Preservation of God’s Word, of which the King James 1611 authorized version is the God-guided faithful translation.”)”
 
Earlier in this thread there I believe was mention of the KofC and Masons working to gether. At first this sounded a litter perposterus. Then I stumbled upon this article by Time. Here is the link. What are the opinions. I thought the KofC was to draw Catholics from the loge. Is the populare Catholic opinion going to change down the road from up top? Time I guess will tell.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836270-2,00.html
 
the free masons have done more good deeds for humanity than all the church in all its history
 
KyivAndrew said:
Thanks DallasTexas. All I can say is if you get a chance to read Piers Paul Read, give him a look.

On the Knights Templar, all I can point out further was that they were brought to a close in the 14th Century NOT because they had any secrets or were anti-Catholic, but simply because the French King at the time wanted their assets. In history, sometimes the prosaic is the real answer and you don’t have to go looking for conspiracies.

God Bless You!
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KyivAndrew,

Thank you for your message. Please read the below post knowing that I am not refuting what your are saying above. As in most discussions about the Templar Knights, I believe that there is very little that can be confirmed… or denied with 100% surety.

The Knights Templar as a part of the Catholic Church were brought to a close by the work of King Phillip and the declaration of the Pope. Many were burned at the stake–ie de Molay–and many of the others simply disappeared. Some were captured and sent to prison–many were able to escape. England did not enact the Pope’s declaration until three months later–there was a large Templar population in the English Isle at that time and very few were captured. Scotland never did enact the Pope’s declaration.

From everything that I have read, there seems to be a lot of clues pointing to the Templars from across Europe (mainly France) seeking refuge in England.

I do not see this an issue of conspiracy as much as survival. The Templars needed to hide.

John J. Robinson would say that the ex-Templars developed a system to help them and to keep their order alive that developed into Freemasonry.

I admittedly cannot attest to the certainty of this claim but do however see it as a valid hypothesis. It really ties-up a lot of the loose ends of the unexplained parts of masonic teachings. Questions such as:

Why the white lamb-skin apron?
Why the white gloves?
Why the elaborate system of due-guards and passwords?
Why such emphasis on King Solomon’s temple?
Why the saints John references?
Why the emphasis on traveling (and protection)?
Who are the three assassins of Hiram?
Why did the Peasant’s Rebellion in England target the Church and the Knights Hospitalliers?
Why the elaborate oaths?

It also explains the Church’s 200 year plus stance against the Freemasons. I have read the papal documents and have been extremely surprised by their tone and inaccuracy–the first of these documents demanded the arrest of Freemasons.

The Church seems to be grasping for reasons to continue Its stance against the organization. It accuses masonry of a laundry list of -isms that are easily refuted with a study of the subject. Pope Leo not only condemned Freemasonry but democracy and public education as well…

Thank you again for your post. I am really interested in hearing anything you have to offer from Pier Paul Read.
 
shivabramin said:
the free masons have done more good deeds for humanity than all the church in all its history
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That perhaps is the most blanket short statement I have ever come across in my limited time on CAF. A blunt statement with no background as to your qualifications to pronounce so authoritatively on 2,000 year Christian history (though you may have a background in it) and on what laurels do you personally feel qualified to commend Freemasons as having done “more” good deeds. Where is your proof?

The Church, in my experience, always has its darker episodes emphasized when the mainstream media does its history on T.V. throwing entirely out the window the Incredible role it brought in reclaiming the world of a Good Creator, Love, Forgiveness, Repentance, and Hope in Life Everlasting. Indeed it preaches that God loved this world so much that he gave his only-begotten son to Suffer and Die for the World on the Cross and Crush Death. Christianity taught there was a reason for suffering and love could conquer. The society you may be living in now bases itself on a 2,000 year foundation of helping the poor and needy (yes this was the major work of many Christian homes and institutions throughout all the centuries and not Inquisition). I mean two billion people still believe this to varying degrees. Christendom is the foundation of our society.

No offense, but having labelled yourself Hindu, do you believe any suffering you or I may go through in this life is because of what we have supposedly done in our past lives. As a Hindu you probably believe in the transmigration of souls?

Not much you can cram in one thread but do you believe that you or I or our kids, parents, may personally be reincarnated in the future and come back as donkeys, monkees, or knats with miserable existences if we’ve done bad Karma. Do you believe that all souls are stuck in an impersonal god’s endless cycles of rebirth until finally a soul a million years down hits Enlightenment?

Jesus Christ is a Personal God who knows and loves you personally. You as a Hindu , on the contrary, surely then must believe in an impersonal God, gods, or lifeforce.

Do you believe that that poor person rotting away on a side street of Mumbai is just merely suffering for what he deserves from a past life and whose suffering is to be accepted, especially if he belongs to the lowest untouchable class of dalits. I recall one prominent member of an Indian family on a religious documentary finding the idea of marrying a dalit disgusting as they were more akin to animals. How does this compare to Jesus saying that what you have done to the least of my brethren you have done to me. Mother Teresa went to India for a specific purpose you know?

Look, I don’t want to make this thread now go Hindu/Christian but stick with Christianity v. Freemasonry. What exactly do you know of the works of Freemasons in the last 300 years which trounces Christianity’s 2,000 year history of preaching God’s love for all and forgiveness of sins with bumps along the road. Masonry trumps Christianity. O.K. back up your claim with specific details please. Not just one sentence.

God Bless!
 
DallasTexas said:
KyivAndrew,

Thank you for your message. Please read the below post knowing that I am not refuting what your are saying above. As in most discussions about the Templar Knights, I believe that there is very little that can be confirmed… or denied with 100% surety.

The Knights Templar as a part of the Catholic Church were brought to a close by the work of King Phillip and the declaration of the Pope. Many were burned at the stake–ie de Molay–and many of the others simply disappeared. Some were captured and sent to prison–many were able to escape. England did not enact the Pope’s declaration until three months later–there was a large Templar population in the English Isle at that time and very few were captured. Scotland never did enact the Pope’s declaration.

From everything that I have read, there seems to be a lot of clues pointing to the Templars from across Europe (mainly France) seeking refuge in England.

I do not see this an issue of conspiracy as much as survival. The Templars needed to hide.

John J. Robinson would say that the ex-Templars developed a system to help them and to keep their order alive that developed into Freemasonry.

I admittedly cannot attest to the certainty of this claim but do however see it as a valid hypothesis. It really ties-up a lot of the loose ends of the unexplained parts of masonic teachings. Questions such as:

Why the white lamb-skin apron?
Why the white gloves?
Why the elaborate system of due-guards and passwords?
Why such emphasis on King Solomon’s temple?
Why the saints John references?
Why the emphasis on traveling (and protection)?
Who are the three assassins of Hiram?
Why did the Peasant’s Rebellion in England target the Church and the Knights Hospitalliers?
Why the elaborate oaths?

It also explains the Church’s 200 year plus stance against the Freemasons. I have read the papal documents and have been extremely surprised by their tone and inaccuracy–the first of these documents demanded the arrest of Freemasons.

The Church seems to be grasping for reasons to continue Its stance against the organization. It accuses masonry of a laundry list of -isms that are easily refuted with a study of the subject. Pope Leo not only condemned Freemasonry but democracy and public education as well…

Thank you again for your post. I am really interested in hearing anything you have to offer from Pier Paul Read.
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Hello Dallas, I appreciate the questions. I’m about to drift and am gone to hospital for most of day tomorrow but I’d like to respond tomorrow night if I can. At least my typing won’t be sloppy cuz my eyes are slowly closing but I just love this CAF stuff.

Just for a starter, one also must not forgot that many Templars were released later and not burned and MANY just became members of the other Orders of the Knights, St. John’s, the Teutonic Order. I think in Portugal the Templars just renamed themselves and continued to exist.

Fascinating Questions really. God Bless! Talk to you tomorrow hopefully unless this thread explodes midday when I’m gone.
 
Hey Dallas, I wish I could figure out how to selectively quote but can’t:
  1. apron, gloves, due-guard, passwords, traveling protection: My answer synchs with what most Freemasons I assume would say, and which is the most likely historical explanation: these were assumed by speculative masons when they started joining the real stonemasons’ guilds in the 17th Century. You know as I do that a medieval guild (like today’s labor unions) wished to keep their guild exclusive and that they traveled all over Europe building cathedrals using passwords from one country to the next. Aprons and gloves were used by stonemasons in work as you would probably wear similar apron and work gloves today if doing concrete work around a house.
  2. Hiram’s assassins The invented characters of Jubela, Jubelum, and Jubelo. Trying to interpret these as the Crown, the Pope and the Hospitallers appears to me a real stretch. Most of the speculative freemasons who began joining the guilds in the 17th century in England were upperclassmen who were loyal to the Crown. I mean members of the English royalty started joining shortly thereafter.
    3)The Temple of Solomon The Templar Knights were originally called “The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Jesus Christ”. It was King Baldwin who provided this brotherhood with somewhere to live in Jerusalem finding room in the palace he had made out of the al-Aqsa mosque on the southern edge of the Temple Mount. As a result they became known successively as “The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Jesus Christ and the Temple of Solomon”, “The Knights of the Temple of Solomon”, “The Knights of the Temple”, and finally “Templars”
    The Temple of Solomon, even before the crusades, always imposed an impression in Christianity’s psyche. The Byzantine Emperor upon completing the majestic Hagia Sophia in Constantinople in the 6th Century A.D. exclaimed: “Solomon, I have outdone thee”. This for his new church.
    Look at the implements the Masons use as their official emblem and put on their graves, the square and compass. The Templars used a sword and shield, the stonemasons used the square and compass, hence Freemasons later origins from stonemasons’ guilds and not way back to the Templars. I mean, the leader of the peasants’ rebellion Tyler. Masons use the word “tyler” because of its medieval meaning of laying tiles, not because of some far-fetched stretch to the rebel’s legacy.
    The Temple of Solomon entered into Freemasonry through the Royal Society of England in the 17th Century. Sir Isaac Newton, despite founding modern physics, to many peoples’ surprise believed in alchemy and the occult and actually looked for hidden meanings in the Pyramids and Temple of Solomon (note: the Templars never showed the faintest interest in Egypt and the Pharoahs as modern masons do; for the Templars the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was it). When members of the Royal Society later in the 17th century began joining the stonemasons’ guilds as was the trend at the time, they brought with them some of these cultish ideas. Indeed Newton did not believe Jesus Christ was God, but subscribed to the arian heresy that Christ was man, even though he had a Church of England burial. Here’s the wikipedia link on this (I can’t fax a book).
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies
    The Templars’ legend began when they were still alive and many adventures were written about them in the Middle Ages leading to fascination with them. Take the worst possible example of a modern movement looking back to its fictional roots in the Templars - Himmler’s S.S. who actually believed they could make an aryan lineage back to the Teutonic Knights to the Templars. Himmler even had a Roundtable of Knights built in his S.S. castle.
  3. Peasant’s Rebellion These popped up everywhere in Europe around this time, not just in England. The Hospitallers, the Templars’ competition, had wealth. When the crusaders lost Jerusalem many of the crusaders in drifting back to the homeland with nothing left to fight for joined commoners in rebellions throughout a century plagued by The Plague.
  4. Elaborate Oaths For me this one is the scary part. If you look at the old stonemasons’ oaths you can see the wording changing as speculative masons started joining. Freemasons today can claim it’s all innocent fun and that they are just like your local Rotarians, or Water Buffalo Lodge, but that’s just not true, and I think you know it too Dallas. The Rotarians do not have Altars, Rituals, Benedictions on Death - all the hallmarks of a religion.
    The oaths of a Freemason undoubtedly present a catch 22 to a Christian when blindfolded, bare-chested and noosed a Christian candidate must place his hand on an open Bible and “solemnly swear” to observe these vows “under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root, and buried in the sand of the sea…or the more effective punishment of being …void of all moral worth…So help me God”.
    There are only two answers as I see them for a Christian taking this oath:
    a) the oath is just for fun, in which case said Christian has just committed the sin of blasphemy for using the Holy Book for fun.
    or;
    b) the oath should be taken seriously, in which case you’ve made a vow of torture in a secular lodge using the Holy Bible (and as I have said I have personally seen the highest degreed Masons freeze in their tracks when you ask them to say the Masonic Royal Arch secret name of God JAHBULON). So obviously the oath does mean something.
    Either way, the above two are sins do you not think? Or am I wrong in which case I’d be glad to hear a proper alternative.
    I hope I have not offended you in anyway and that our common brotherhood in the Catholic Church binds us as believers in the Church and Christ. God Bless!
 
And my apologies to everyone trying to read my above post. Dallas gave a lot of questions so I tried to answer them all in one post and maxed out so not much whitespace. Apologies
 
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