freemasonry

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Evidently you did not read my quotes; so that makes us even I guess.

zerinus
Randy made his point FIRST addressing your comments. You made your comments afterwards FAILING to address the very important point which I re-stated for you.

Let’s address Randy’s comments first and your’s afterwards since that is the order that they came in.

And Randy’s point was that Jesus did not condemn their teaching because He commanded the people to obey their teaching. So, I ask again, if Jesus condemned their teaching as you claim, why would he command the crowds to obey such false teaching? That doesn’t make any sense.

Clearly you are mistaken and Jesus did not condemn their teaching.
 
The sins he was apologizing for were those that had the backing and support of the church hierarchy at all levels; or were instigated by them. They were not actions of just some rogue Catholics.

Wrong actions result from, or are justified by, wrong teachings or beliefs. You can’t separate actions from teachings or beliefs. If wrong thing were done, it was because it was believed, or they were taught, that they were the right things to do.

zerinus
Okay then if this statement is true, why do my Children not do or listen to what i say? My son is 22 he smokes, I do not smoke nor does my husband. I never taught him to smoke, MY TEACHINGS were do not smoke, His actions is to smoke my teachings or beliefs is you should not smoke he is doing it. Are you saying its my fault. I told him to never skip Church on Sun, I never do or have. Now i know he does at times again why is that justified by me teaching him not to. thats what you are saying. The church teaches love and Peace, and to follow the ten commandments and follow the teachings of Christ, and the bible says Peter is the leader, we believe that, is it the Churchs fault again that you dont. What you stated does not make sense. You said you dont believe in the Church or the Church teachings I do. Now how can you blame the Church because you dont believe, what about me and the other People who do believe. Then what you are saying just because you dont believe, and listen, and obey then it makes the Church wrong, ITsnt this the same thing we are talking about. It all seems to go back to we are taught the truth, we all are, Because the bible says the same thing, but some do what they are taught some dont. thats the real issue.
 
Randy made his point FIRST addressing your comments. You made your comments afterwards FAILING to address the very important point which I re-stated for you.

Let’s address Randy’s comments first and your’s afterwards since that is the order that they came in.

And Randy’s point was that Jesus did not condemn their teaching because He commanded the people to obey their teaching. So, I ask again, if Jesus condemned their teaching as claim, why would he command the crowds to obey such false teaching? That doesn’t make any sense.
And I turn that question around to you: If Jesus commended their teachings so uncompromisingly as you and Randy claim, why did He condemn them so resoundingly in the quotes I had given? It doesn’t make any sense, right?
Clearly you are mistaken and Jesus did not condemn their teaching.
Clearly you are mistaken, and Jesus did condemn their teaching.

zerinus
 
Zerinus, clearly you are taking it upon yourself to replace Peter (the Pope) and intrepret scripture even though the bible clearly states you do not have that right. Again who do we listen to Peter whom Jesus told us to listen to or according to what you are saying forget the Church, Pope, and scripture and listen to you. Okay I will do that as soon as you show me where Jesus replaced Peter with you and not the Pope. show me where in the succession you are at. Then i may have to listen to you. But as far as i can see, you are the false teachings Jesus warned me about. But again im here and show me in scripture where it states to listen to you and not the CHurch or Pope. We have showed you our scripture.
 
Like any LDS, zerinus believes that any failings within the Church can be declared equal to the fall of the Church. (The fall of the Church is an absolute contradiction of the promises of Jesus Christ.) Believing that the Church has fallen, zerinus and his fellows support a cult that was founded on the premise: “the promises of Jesus Christ are lies.”

Yet, we are here. The Church exists. The Church is here.

IMO, the LDS cult is a needless and contradictory redundancy.
IMO, to support it, one must glue a set of blinders to one’s brain.

BTW, what do zerinus’ opinions re the Church have to do with the masons?
 
BTW, what do zerinus’ opinions re the Church have to do with the masons?
Because one discussion leads naturally to something else, and they are interconnected.

The rest of your post does not deserve a reply.

zerinus
 
The topic of this thread is:

what is the church current and official view on freemasonry and the reasons?

Perhaps someone should start a thread called “LDSs against the Catholic Church.”
 
The topic of this thread is:

what is the church current and official view on freemasonry and the reasons?

Perhaps someone should start a thread called “LDSs against the Catholic Church.”
It is? How amazing! Did you work that out by yourself, or did somebody help you?

zerinus
 
It is? How amazing! Did you work that out by yourself, or did somebody help you?

zerinus
Why are you acting like this, everyone here is just responding to the Mason thread. You are bringing up your religion. Its none of our business what Religion you are, we arent debating your religion, we are stating why the Church says that we should not follow the Masons. The last time we had this discussion the same thing happend, we answered the questions according to our faith, thats what we were asked to do, then a million other things came up. And it got real ugly. Now do you want to know what the RCC says about Masons or dont you? We really dont care what you views are about the CC or the Pope, thats not what is asked. Its the Masons forbidden by the CHurch and why. No what does that have to do with your religion. If you want to know what the CHurch says go back and read what everyone has told you. We arent trying to convert you to the faith. You must want to learn about it, thats why you are on here, that is fine, we are here to tell the truth the best we can. But if you are hear to tear it down, please start another thread. Its not helping the ones who really want to know about the Masons. Please be kind and stay on the subject now.
 
Why are you acting like this, everyone here is just responding to the Mason thread. You are bringing up your religion. Its none of our business what Religion you are, we arent debating your religion, we are stating why the Church says that we should not follow the Masons. The last time we had this discussion the same thing happend, we answered the questions according to our faith, thats what we were asked to do, then a million other things came up. And it got real ugly. Now do you want to know what the RCC says about Masons or dont you?
No I don’t! I already know that. I am posting here to tell them why I think it is wrong.
We really dont care what you views are about the CC or the Pope, thats not what is asked. Its the Masons forbidden by the CHurch and why. No what does that have to do with your religion. If you want to know what the CHurch says go back and read what everyone has told you. We arent trying to convert you to the faith. You must want to learn about it, thats why you are on here, that is fine, we are here to tell the truth the best we can. But if you are hear to tear it down, please start another thread. Its not helping the ones who really want to know about the Masons. Please be kind and stay on the subject now.
LOL! :confused:

zerinus
 
And I turn that question around to you: If Jesus commended their teachings so uncompromisingly as you and Randy claim, why did He condemn them so resoundingly in the quotes I had given? It doesn’t make any sense, right?
If what you say is true and Jesus condemned their teaching, then why is Jesus commanding the people to obey their false teaching? That doesn’t make sense either!
 
So now, I say to you, YES, it has changed.

It is the PENALTY that has changed.

The penalty for masonic membership now is NOT excommunication; it is instead a barrier to the Eucharist.
could you please refer me to a vatican document that would verify this?
 
If what you say is true and Jesus condemned their teaching, then why is Jesus commanding the people to obey their false teaching? That doesn’t make sense either!
Agreed! So what do you do when you are faced with a situation like this? That is where scripture interpretation and exegesis becomes necessary. You look at both sides of the argument, and decide on a formula that satisfies both, without doing violence to either. The better you know your scriptures, the better are your chances of success. This is my formula:

The Pharisees were in general zealous people towards the Law of Moses. They were not all evil, or completely so. Paul addressing them says, “I am verily a man which . . . was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day(Acts 22:3). In another place he writes of them, “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge(Romans 10:2). They had studied the Law, and were in a position to teach it to the Jews who for the most part were not learned. What they taught was for the most part correct, but not necessarily always so. They were also often (but not always) a hypocritical people. They taught the law correctly for the most part, but did not keep it themselves. So Jesus tells His disciples to do what they say, but not what they do. But at the same time He condemns them by saying of them, “Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch(Matthew 15:13–14). That is hardly the kind of sweeping endorsement of them or their teaching that Randy was implying. It has to be seen on balance, and within the limitations that the rest of the scriptures impose on it. It requires a very big stretch of the imagination to carry it over to the Catholic Church, and say that therefore the Catholic Church is infallible, and cannot err in doctrine.

Having said that, however, it probably is true to say that if you are a Catholic, the safest course of action for you to take is to stay close to the teachings of the Catholic Church—unless the Catholic Church told you to do something against which you have a strong moral objection. But joining Freemasonry is not something about which one (normally) would have a strong moral objection. So if you are a committed Catholic, then I would recommend you to do what the Catholic Church says about Freemasonry, rather than risk undermining your own faith. As Paul says, “he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23). He was referring to eating meat sacrificed to idols. In reality there is nothing wrong with eating such a meat. But if your conscience is weak, and you think it a sin, then it would be a sin for you to eat it. The same rule applies to a Catholic joining Freemasonry.

zerinus
 
What does the Church feel about masons joining the church. As I am a mason and have considered joining the Catholic Church as I am the only non Catholic in my household.
 
What does the Church feel about masons joining the church. As I am a mason and have considered joining the Catholic Church as I am the only non Catholic in my household.
The Catholic Church does not allow Catholics to be members of the masons. Simple reason: too much conflict of interest due to masonry’s historic repudiation of Catholics and the Faith.
 
And I turn that question around to you: If Jesus commended their teachings so uncompromisingly as you and Randy claim, why did He condemn them so resoundingly in the quotes I had given? It doesn’t make any sense, right?

Clearly you are mistaken, and Jesus did condemn their teaching.

zerinus
Here is the passage again:

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’” (Matthew 23:1-3)

Now, where precisely does Jesus condemn the teachings of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees here?

He condemns their practice but he upholds their authority and tells his disciples to obey them.

“You must obey them and do everything they tell you.” Why? Because they sit in Moses’ seat which represented God-given authority.

The fact that these same leaders were scandalous in their deeds did not diminish the fact that what they taught was to be obeyed.
 
zerinus;3744209[COLOR=darkred:
[QUOTE]
What invalidates the authority of the Catholic Church (and every other Christian church except LDS), is the apostasy of the early Christian church, not just the evil actions of a few rogue elements.
[/QUOTE]
zerinus"The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only. The significance and importance of this apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. IF THE ALLEGED APOSTASY OF THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH WAS NOT A REALITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS IS NOT THE DIVINE INSTITUTION ITS NAME PROCLAIMS" (emphasis added). (James E. Talmadge, The Great Apostasy (Salt Lake City: Desert Books,1968ed.),iii.)

Wow. You have a lot riding on this, don’t you?

Tell us, when precisely did this “great apostasy” occur?

What events triggered it?

Who were the principal people involved at the time?

Can you cite the writings of any first and second century Mormons denouncing the heresies that the Catholic Church allegedly introduced at the time of the “great apostasy”?
 
So now, I say to you, YES, it has changed.
Evil is evil.
It is the PENALTY that has changed.

The penalty for masonic membership now is NOT excommunication; it is instead a barrier to the Eucharist. Membership in the masons is a mortal sin for Catholics. The penalty (since 1983) is a ban from receiving the Eucharist. Until 1983, the penalty was exccommunication for any Catholic who joined the masons. Perhaps the penalty was changed because some Catholics are so driven by personal pride that they would best be guided to turn from error by a penalty of distance from the Holy Eucharist, rather than distance from the Church.
You are mistaken. Canon law no longer specifically names excommunication as the penalty, but it is implied. See this website for an explanation.

A Catholic who joins a masonic (or similar) organization is excommunicated by the act of doing so.

Peace,
Dante
 
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