freemasonry

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Zerinus,

I have flagged this thread so that the moderators will see your persistence in derailing it.

Can we please get back on topic?

Peace,
Dante
 
Zerinus,

I have flagged this thread so that the moderators will see your persistence in derailing it.

Can we please get back on topic?

Peace,
Dante
You should join the SS. I am not derailing anything. I am merely responding to other people’s posts. It is a sign of cowardice to try to close down the thread when you start losing the argument.

zerinus
 
Here is the passage again:

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’” (Matthew 23:1-3)

Now, where precisely does Jesus condemn the teachings of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees here?

He condemns their practice but he upholds their authority and tells his disciples to obey them.

“You must obey them and do everything they tell you.” Why? Because they sit in Moses’ seat which represented God-given authority.

The fact that these same leaders were scandalous in their deeds did not diminish the fact that what they taught was to be obeyed.
Then you couldn’t have read my previous posts, in which I made that perfectly clear.
“The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only. The significance and importance of this apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. IF THE ALLEGED APOSTASY OF THE PRIMITIVE CHURCH WAS NOT A REALITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS IS NOT THE DIVINE INSTITUTION ITS NAME PROCLAIMS” (emphasis added). (James E. Talmadge, The Great Apostasy (Salt Lake City: Desert Books,1968ed.),iii.)

Wow. You have a lot riding on this, don’t you?

Tell us, when precisely did this “great apostasy” occur?

What events triggered it?

Who were the principal people involved at the time?

Can you cite the writings of any first and second century Mormons denouncing the heresies that the Catholic Church allegedly introduced at the time of the “great apostasy”?
Already answered in these posts:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2008/04/apostasy-and-restoration.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/foundational-premise-of-mormonism.html

zerinus
 
You are mistaken. Canon law no longer specifically names excommunication as the penalty, but it is implied. See this website for an explanation.

A Catholic who joins a masonic (or similar) organization is excommunicated by the act of doing so.

Peace,
Dante
I looked at the website. There is nothing in there that says what you say. I don’t think you have even read it.

zerinus
 
The Catholic Church does not allow Catholics to be members of the masons. Simple reason: too much conflict of interest due to masonry’s historic repudiation of Catholics and the Faith.
Can you provide some documentary evidence for “Masonry’s historic repudiation of Catholics and the Faith”? As far as I know, it was the Catholic Church which first “repudiated” Masonry; then the Masons (not all of them), being human, responded in like manner. Since the first offense was caused by the Catholic Church, the reconciliation should begin with the Catholic Church too. Don’t you think so?

zerinus
 
I looked at the website. There is nothing in there that says what you say. I don’t think you have even read it.

zerinus
Are you serious??
On 19 July 1974 this Congregation wrote to some Episcopal Conferences a private letter concerning the interpretation of can 2335 of the Code of Canon Law which forbids Catholics, under the penalty of excommunication, to enroll in Masonic or other similar associations.
Since the said letter has become public and has given rise to erroneous and tendentious interpretations, this Congregation, without prejudice to the eventual norms of the new Code, issues the following confirmation and clarification:
  1. the present canonical discipline remains in full force and has not been modified in any way;
  1. consequently, neither the excommunication nor the other penalties envisaged have been abrogated;
That’s the very first thing one would read if one actually read the page.

Peace,
Dante
 
You should join the SS. I am not derailing anything. I am merely responding to other people’s posts. It is a sign of cowardice to try to close down the thread when you start losing the argument.

zerinus
Oh please.

Everytime you launch into a diatribe about Mormonism, you derail the thread.

Everytime you make ad hominem attacks, you derail the thread.

I am not trying to get the thread shut down; I’m trying to get you to stop derailing it.

Peace,
Dante
 
You are mistaken. Canon law no longer specifically names excommunication as the penalty, but it is implied. See this website for an explanation.

A Catholic who joins a masonic (or similar) organization is excommunicated by the act of doing so.

Peace,
Dante
Sorry Dante, you are worng.

The article you linked (it’s mostly an explanatory commentary by Cardinal Law) has been posted re masonry several times in recent weeks. If you read to the very end of the linked article (that YOU LINKED), you will find this:

"Since the decree “In Eminenti” of Pope Clement XII in 1738, Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain of excommunication. (The Orthodox and several Protestant churches also ban membership in the Masons.) Confusion occurred in 1974, when a letter by Cardinal Franjo Seper, then prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was interpreted to mean that Catholics could join Masonic lodges that were not anti-Catholic; the same congregation declared this interpretation as erroneous in 1981.

On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: “The Church’s negative position on Masonic association … remains unaltered, since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the Church’s doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church. Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and may not approach Holy Communion.” However, neither this declaration nor the 1983 Code of Canon Law imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics belonging to the Masons.

Fr. Saunders is president of the Notre Dame Institute and pastor of Queen of Apostles Parish, both in Alexandria.

This article appeared in the May 9, 1996 issue of “The Arlington Catholic Herald.”"

Lesson noted: read an article to the end, THEN draw conclusions.
 
Catharina, that is exactly what i have also. So i would say that with that statement, that pretty much wraps it up. That is what the Catholic Church says to date. And as usual its proof that the Church is still in FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH.
 
Are you serious??

That’s the very first thing one would read if one actually read the page.

Peace,
Dante
This document was issued in February 17, 1981, and is not the latest judgment. The latest judgment is the Quaesitum est, which was issued in Nov. 26, 1983, and fixes the penalty as denial of Holy Communion. According to the earlier 1917 Code of Canon Law, the penalty for membership of Freemasonry was immediate and mandatory excommunication. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Masonry was not specifically mentioned, which caused confusion for some people. The Quaesitum est was issued to clarify the confusion, and reduced the penalty from automatic excommunication to denial of Communion.

zerinus
 
This document was issued in February 17, 1981, and is not the latest judgment. The latest judgment is the Quaesitum est, which was issued in Nov. 26, 1983, and fixes the penalty as denial of Holy Communion. According to the earlier 1917 Code of Canon Law, the penalty for membership of Freemasonry was immediate and mandatory excommunication. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Masonry was not specifically mentioned, which caused confusion for some people. The Quaesitum est was issued to clarify the confusion, and reduced the penalty from automatic excommunication to denial of Communion.

zerinus
Repeating an earlier post, Post 192:

"So now, I say to you, YES, it has changed.
Evil is evil.
It is the PENALTY that has changed.

The penalty for masonic membership now is NOT excommunication; it is instead a barrier to the Eucharist. Membership in the masons is a mortal sin for Catholics. The penalty (since 1983) is a ban from receiving the Eucharist. Until 1983, the penalty was exccommunication for any Catholic who joined the masons. Perhaps the penalty was changed because some Catholics are so driven by personal pride that they would best be guided to turn from error by a penalty of distance from the Holy Eucharist, rather than distance from the Church."
 
Oh please.

Everytime you launch into a diatribe about Mormonism, you derail the thread.

Everytime you make ad hominem attacks, you derail the thread.

I am not trying to get the thread shut down; I’m trying to get you to stop derailing it.

Peace,
Dante
Care to point to some examples?

zerinus
 
Repeating an earlier post, Post 192:

"So now, I say to you, YES, it has changed.
Evil is evil.
It is the PENALTY that has changed.

The penalty for masonic membership now is NOT excommunication; it is instead a barrier to the Eucharist. Membership in the masons is a mortal sin for Catholics. The penalty (since 1983) is a ban from receiving the Eucharist. Until 1983, the penalty was exccommunication for any Catholic who joined the masons. Perhaps the penalty was changed because some Catholics are so driven by personal pride that they would best be guided to turn from error by a penalty of distance from the Holy Eucharist, rather than distance from the Church."
Your response is unnecessary, tendentious, and irrelevant. I was merely responding to DanteAlighieri in his post #226, and agreeing with your post #228.

zerinus
 
Your response is unnecessary, tendentious, and irrelevant. I was merely responding to DanteAlighieri in his post #226, and agreeing with your post #228.

zerinus
Your OPINION re my response is your OPINION.

As for your attempts to derail the thread to mormon-speak,
I stopped looking for such quotes up through page 8. Through
page 8, here are a few mormon-speak quotes from you:

52
100
103
107
110
112
120

Your agenda is transparent and self-serving. Nothing new.
 
Your response is unnecessary, tendentious, and irrelevant. I was merely responding to DanteAlighieri in his post #226, and agreeing with your post #228.

zerinus
Come to think of it, since you ARE a mormon, why not start a thread about that?
 
This document was issued in February 17, 1981, and is not the latest judgment. The latest judgment is the Quaesitum est, which was issued in Nov. 26, 1983, and fixes the penalty as denial of Holy Communion. According to the earlier 1917 Code of Canon Law, the penalty for membership of Freemasonry was immediate and mandatory excommunication. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Masonry was not specifically mentioned, which caused confusion for some people. The Quaesitum est was issued to clarify the confusion, and reduced the penalty from automatic excommunication to denial of Communion.

zerinus
Further clarification (since you objected to my response): what you term “denial of Communion” means something to the Mormon that is light-years removed from a Catholic being banned from reception of the Holy Eucharist. Hope that clarification is of help to you. So again:

“Perhaps the penalty was changed because some Catholics are so driven by personal pride that they would best be guided to turn from error by a penalty of distance from the Holy Eucharist, rather than distance from the Church.”
 
Your OPINION re my response is your OPINION.

As for your attempts to derail the thread to mormon-speak, I stopped looking for such quotes up through page 8.
I have arranged my pages differently from yours, so your page numbers do not correspond with mine. I have arranged them so I get 100 posts per page. Take that as a useful tip from me. It will save you a lot of flipping through pages. 🙂
Through page 8, here are a few mormon-speak quotes from you:
52
100
103
107
110
112
120
Your agenda is transparent and self-serving. Nothing new.
I had a look at those posts. You must be kidding, right? Any reference to Mormonism in any of those posts came in response to what previous posters had said. None of them were initiated by me. What do you expect me to do when others comment on Mormonism? Keep quiet and say nothing? :confused:
Come to think of it, since you ARE a mormon, why not start a thread about that?
There are plenty of threads about Mormonism, mostly started by others. They are enough to keep me busy. I don’t have a particular subject in mind at the moment to start a thread with. If you have a particular subject in mind that you would like to discuss or inquire about, feel free to start a thread, and I will be happy to respond to it.
Further clarification (since you objected to my response): what you term “denial of Communion” means something to the Mormon that is light-years removed from a Catholic being banned from reception of the Holy Eucharist. Hope that clarification is of help to you.
Not very much I am afraid. That there are theological differences between Mormonism and Catholicism, there is no doubt; but how far they are from each other in astronomical terms I wouldn’t like to guess. Coming more down to earth, however, I would say that the LDS Sacrament is the theologically and biblically correct one, having the full authority of the priesthood behind it; whereas the Catholic one is not.
So again:
“Perhaps the penalty was changed because some Catholics are so driven by personal pride that they would best be guided to turn from error by a penalty of distance from the Holy Eucharist, rather than distance from the Church.”
“Perhaps” doesn’t mean much in either Mormonism or Catholicism. If you don’t know why your leaders have made their decisions, go and find out, and tell us what that is, and then we might have something to talk about.

And by the way, I noticed that you replied to all of my posts (one twice) except post #225. :rolleyes:

zerinus
 
I have arranged my pages differently from yours, so your page numbers do not correspond with mine. I have arranged them so I get 100 posts per page. Take that as a useful tip from me. It will save you a lot of flipping through pages. 🙂

I had a look at those posts. You must be kidding, right? Any reference to Mormonism in any of those posts came in response to what previous posters had said. None of them were initiated by me. What do you expect me to do when others comment on Mormonism? Keep quiet and say nothing? :confused:

There are plenty of threads about Mormonism, mostly started by others. They are enough to keep me busy. I don’t have a particular subject in mind at the moment to start a thread with. If you have a particular subject in mind that you would like to discuss or inquire about, feel free to start a thread, and I will be happy to respond to it.

Not very much I am afraid. That there are theological differences between Mormonism and Catholicism, there is no doubt; but how far they are from each other in astronomical terms I wouldn’t like to guess. Coming more down to earth, however, I would say that the LDS Sacrament is the theologically and biblically correct one, having the full authority of the priesthood behind it; whereas the Catholic one is not.

“Perhaps” doesn’t mean much in either Mormonism or Catholicism. If you don’t know why your leaders have made their decisions, go and find out, and tell us what that is, and then we might have something to talk about.

And by the way, I noticed that you replied to all of my posts (one twice) except post #225. :rolleyes:

zerinus
To me, “perhaps” indicates I have no need to know. That is, NONE.

I’m sure you’re busy enough questioning all of the changes in mormonism:

Jesus is/isn’t satan’s brother.
Blacks can/can’t be mormons.
mormon men can/can’t expect to become God.
mormon men must/mustn’t have multiple wiives.
The Holy Spirit is/isn’t of any importance.
Jesus is/isn’t Lord and redeemer of all

The list goes on and on.
Keep up with your own changes.

I have no interest and NO NEED to learn any more re the cult of LDS.
 
Can you provide some documentary evidence for “Masonry’s historic repudiation of Catholics and the Faith”? As far as I know, it was the Catholic Church which first “repudiated” Masonry; then the Masons (not all of them), being human, responded in like manner. Since the first offense was caused by the Catholic Church, the reconciliation should begin with the Catholic Church too. Don’t you think so?

zerinus
The first offense was the masons in declaring a secret society. Catholics are not allowed membership in any secret societies. Standard teaching.
 
To me, “perhaps” indicates I have no need to know. That is, NONE.
Hmmm. If you don’t want to know, what makes you think I do?
I’m sure you’re busy enough questioning all of the changes in mormonism:
Jesus is/isn’t satan’s brother.
Blacks can/can’t be mormons.
mormon men can/can’t expect to become God.
mormon men must/mustn’t have multiple wiives.
The Holy Spirit is/isn’t of any importance.
Jesus is/isn’t Lord and redeemer of all
The list goes on and on.
Keep up with your own changes.
I have no interest and NO NEED to learn any more re the cult of LDS.
LOL! 😃 There have been no “changes” in Mormonism. But since you are not interested, I guess I have nothing further to say.
The first offense was the masons in declaring a secret society. Catholics are not allowed membership in any secret societies. Standard teaching.
What was the second offense? You know that that is not true. The first Papal Bull against Masonry, In Eminenti, was published in April 28, 1738, just twenty years after Freemasonry was publicly organized. Care to read that, and tell us on the basis of what evidence the Pope brings such accusations against Masonry? One of the Ten Commandments reads: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”.

zerinus
 
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