freemasonry

[DallasTexas]

Jim,

Thank you for the posting.

Yes, I am Roman Catholic. I believe that the Church has made an error with it prohibition against masonry.

Sincerely,

We’ve had this discussion before. If the church has ERRORED and is leading the faithful astray with FALSE teaching then it either can not be the Church that Christ established because Jesus said that the gates of hell would not over come HIS church.

Either that, or we can not believe in the promises of Christ.

Which one do you think it is?

Of course, there is the third option that the Church is correct and you are the one who errored.

Sir Knight,

Thank you for your posting.

We have indeed had this discussion before. I still do not think that the Church making an error means that the gates of hell have over come His Church. I don’t remember any promise of perfection.

I pray that the Church will change It’s position on Freemasonry and see the error in condeming something that is not a mortal sin.

Sincerely,

Then what does it mean to YOU to not have the gates of hell overcome the church? What does it mean that the church will be guided by the Holy Spirit in all truths?

Sir Knight,

Thank you for your posting.

We were having a pretty good discussion on this before the second thread was ended. I’m glad we can get back to it. I always learn a lot during the course of our dialogues.

Do we agree on the below definitions?

*Overcome—to get the better of; overwhelm; to gain the superiority.

Guide (verb)— to act as a guide; to direct in a way or course; to direct, supervise, influence, usually to a particular end.

Source: merriam-webster.com/dictionary*

If so, then the Church making a mistake on the prohibition of Freemasonry and classifying it as a mortal sin does not mean that the gates of hell have overcome the Church or that the Holy Spirit hasn’t guided the Church.

Thank you again Sir Knight for your posting.

Sincerely,

 

[rinnie]

Dallas Texas maybe this will help you. The Magisterium is infallible when it teaches officially because Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors INTO ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-13.) Maybe since you wont listen to what Sir Knight says, and what the Church says and the Pope says maybe hearing it straight from the bible and from John himself might help a little better. Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans John 14:18. he gave the sacraments to heal, feed and strengthen us. Christ the good shepherd called Peter to be the Chief Shepherd of his church John 21:15-17. He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other apostles in their faith ensuring that the faith of the Church would never go astray Luke 22:31-32 Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making decisions acts 2:1-41 15:7-12. Early christian writings tell us that Peters successors the bishops of Rome the POPE continued to exercise Peters ministry in the Church. Again read luke he promised that we would not go astray, thats what the Pope is doing still today. I know you dont agree with his decisions, but no disrespect Jesus did not leave the Church to you or I he left it to the Pope. Its not for us to question his decisions only to obey them, the way the apostles obeyed Jesus. there were alot of things they didnt understand either, but they obeyed him. Look at Job, what did Job say who are we to question God, Is not the Pope led by the Holy Spirit who in fact is God. If the Pope says no masons for Catholics, he has his reasons, he doesnt have to share anything with us. He does not have to explain himself to noone. And who in this world has the right to question him. one Person and that is God himself, and he is the person guiding him. If you really dont believe that God is leading the Pope, then you must question yourself, and get back into bible study and the church and ask God for the grace to help you get back on track. We cant question, not if we are faithful and our faith is true, We must have the faith to say, okay if this is what God wants and has led the Pope to do, rather I agree or disagree i must obey. Only the grace of God and the Holy Spirt can give you this unquestionable faith, I will pray for you that you can come to understand it better. God Bless you Dallas Texas and i will also pray for you to receive that gift. Also thankyou so much for your prayers. I need them at this time,and my Mom especially now that she is carrying this huge Cross Jesus has set before her. But i know with Gods grace also he will help her to also carry this cross. My mother doesnt understand either Dallas Texas why God had to taken her 39 year old son off of her and then turn around and 4 years later and take her husband (her rock) and she also (if i asked her does not agree with Gods decisions either) what i mean by that she dont like what God choose. But she like you Dallas has to except this cross and bear it. She dont want to. and she doesnt understand why she must do it, but she will how? By the Grace of God, she will carry her cross and finish what God says she must finish. Again she doesnt like Gods decision, but she also must obey and except it.I Hope some how some way this will also help you find some peace in what has to be. She will never get her answer until she meets God face to face, that may be when God answers you too. But please obey the church. Its our salvation.

 

[zerinus]

That is Not true…

The Church doesn’t usually say that something is an ex-communicatable offense one day and NOT the next…

Just because the Church doesn’t give a Bull of Excommunication does not mean one is NOT excommunicated… a person excommunicates himself when he does something like this… it’s automatic…

That is nonsense. jimcav was entirely correct. The Catholic Chruch’s original penalty for joinng the Freemasons was immediate excommunication. Then they softened their stance, and reduced the penalty not taking communion until one had renounced Masonry, and made a “good confession”. There is no such thing as “excommunicating yourself”.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Question for you Dallas:

How is Freemasonry organized internationally? Do the American Grand Lodges come under the jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England, or are they completely independent? If they are independent, do they recognize each other?

zerinus

 

[DallasTexas]

Question for you Dallas:

How is Freemasonry organized internationally? Do the American Grand Lodges come under the jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England, or are they completely independent? If they are independent, do they recognize each other?

zerinus

Freemasonry is not internationally organized. There is a Grand Lodge for each state in the US. Most countries have only one Grand Lodge (there are a few that go by state or region similar to that of the US), but no Grand Lodge is under the authority of any other Grand Lodge. They are all autonomous and independent.

Grand Lodges can choose to recognize other Grand Lodges. To the best of my knowledge all the Grand Lodges of the United States recognize each other. However some may recognize the Grand Lodge of Bolivia and some may not. I think that the Grand Lodges choose whether or not to recognize other Grand Lodges based on the beliefs of the other Grand Lodge, and if whether or not the beliefs of the two are reconcilable. For example if a foreign lodge allows atheists as members, I almost certain that the Grand Lodge of Texas would not recognize that foreign lodge.

It gets more complicated with the other forms of masonry. In Europe the Grand Orients are generally not recognized by the Grand Lodges of the US. The Grand Lodge National de France is recognized but the Grand Orient de France is not.

I don’t really know any more than this on the subject. It does get a little confusing, and please do not take me as an authority on this subject.

Thank you for the question.

 

[ralphinal]

That is nonsense. jimcav was entirely correct. The Catholic Chruch’s original penalty for joinng the Freemasons was immediate excommunication. Then they softened their stance, and reduced the penalty not taking communion until one had renounced Masonry, and made a “good confession”. There is no such thing as “excommunicating yourself”.

zerinus

Some sins, such as abortion, carry automatic excomunication, no decree needed. Other things, such as teaching heresy, require a notification of excomunication. If it has as part of it the automatic excomunication, the way to get back into the Church is typically confession, with no public renunciation. Membership in Freemasons is the same, although part of renouncing the sin in confession is having firm purpose of amendment. For something like this, that would require renouncing the group.

All that excomunication is is a banning from the sacraments and Church burial. To that end, a prohibition from communion would be a form of excommunication.

 

[distracted]

Then they softened their stance, Did not

and reduced the penalty not taking communion until one had renounced Masonry, and made a “good confession”.

Is too…

 

[zerinus]

Some sins, such as abortion, carry automatic excomunication, no decree needed. Other things, such as teaching heresy, require a notification of excomunication. If it has as part of it the automatic excomunication, the way to get back into the Church is typically confession, with no public renunciation. Membership in Freemasons is the same, although part of renouncing the sin in confession is having firm purpose of amendment. For something like this, that would require renouncing the group.

All that excomunication is is a banning from the sacraments and Church burial. To that end, a prohibition from communion would be a form of excommunication.

Catholic theology never made a lot of sense to me anyway, and I guess this is s case in point!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Did not

that is always the remedy for having ex-communicated yourself…

Is too…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaesitum_est

zerinus

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight,

Thank you for your posting.

We were having a pretty good discussion on this before the second thread was ended. I’m glad we can get back to it. I always learn a lot during the course of our dialogues.

Do we agree on the below definitions?

Overcome—to get the better of; overwhelm; to gain the superiority.

Guide (verb)— to act as a guide; to direct in a way or course; to direct, supervise, influence, usually to a particular end.

Source: merriam-webster.com/dictionary

If so, then the Church making a mistake on the prohibition of Freemasonry and classifying it as a mortal sin does not mean that the gates of hell have overcome the Church or that the Holy Spirit hasn’t guided the Church.

Thank you again Sir Knight for your posting.

Sincerely,

You have an incorrect understanding of scripture. What would be the point of having the Holy Spirit guide the church in all truths if the church could ignore that influence?

If your understanding were to be correct, what would happen if the church ignored the direction of the Holy Spirit and declared a false teaching – recalling that Jesus also promised that whatever they bound on earth wound be bound in heaven.

Does that mean that this false teaching would also be bound in heaven? If it wouldn’t, then it would mean that Christ was a liar because not everything that they bound on earth would be bound in heaven.

The only correct understanding of that passage is that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church in all truth AND the church WOULD follow that direction.

Any other understanding opens up the problems that I just outlined above.

 

[distracted]

There is no such thing as “excommunicating yourself”.

zerinus

You are wrong -

and out-numbered…

 

[catharina]

Dallas Texas maybe this will help you. The Magisterium is infallible when it teaches officially because Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors INTO ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-13.) Maybe since you wont listen to what Sir Knight says, and what the Church says and the Pope says maybe hearing it straight from the bible and from John himself might help a little better. Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans John 14:18. he gave the sacraments to heal, feed and strengthen us. Christ the good shepherd called Peter to be the Chief Shepherd of his church John 21:15-17. He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other apostles in their faith ensuring that the faith of the Church would never go astray Luke 22:31-32 Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making decisions acts 2:1-41 15:7-12. Early christian writings tell us that Peters successors the bishops of Rome the POPE continued to exercise Peters ministry in the Church. Again read luke he promised that we would not go astray, thats what the Pope is doing still today. I know you dont agree with his decisions, but no disrespect Jesus did not leave the Church to you or I he left it to the Pope. Its not for us to question his decisions only to obey them, the way the apostles obeyed Jesus. there were alot of things they didnt understand either, but they obeyed him. Look at Job, what did Job say who are we to question God, Is not the Pope led by the Holy Spirit who in fact is God. **If the Pope says no masons for Catholics, he has his reasons, he doesnt have to share anything with us. ** He does not have to explain himself to noone. And who in this world has the right to question him. one Person and that is God himself, and he is the person guiding him. If you really dont believe that God is leading the Pope, then you must question yourself, and get back into bible study and the church and ask God for the grace to help you get back on track. We cant question, not if we are faithful and our faith is true, We must have the faith to say, okay if this is what God wants and has led the Pope to do, rather I agree or disagree i must obey. Only the grace of God and the Holy Spirt can give you this unquestionable faith, I will pray for you that you can come to understand it better. God Bless you Dallas Texas and i will also pray for you to receive that gift. Also thankyou so much for your prayers. I need them at this time,and my Mom especially now that she is carrying this huge Cross Jesus has set before her. But i know with Gods grace also he will help her to also carry this cross. My mother doesnt understand either Dallas Texas why God had to taken her 39 year old son off of her and then turn around and 4 years later and take her husband (her rock) and she also (if i asked her does not agree with Gods decisions either) what i mean by that she dont like what God choose. But she like you Dallas has to except this cross and bear it. She dont want to. and she doesnt understand why she must do it, but she will how? By the Grace of God, she will carry her cross and finish what God says she must finish. Again she doesnt like Gods decision, but she also must obey and except it.I Hope some how some way this will also help you find some peace in what has to be. She will never get her answer until she meets God face to face, that may be when God answers you too. But please obey the church. Its our salvation.

**
re Bolded above:

Yes, that’s the simple fact.
What is the point of Faith if it MUST have “reasons?”
Who can even call such a thing “Faith?”

“Hebrews
Chapter 11
1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.
2 Because of it the ancients were well attested.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.”

God speaks to us through Scripture and Tradition.
Both are guarded by the Catholic Church.
Tradition issues forth from the Catholic Church.

Every Catholic knows that.
One might not like it - but to be Catholic, one must accept it.**

 

[catharina]

You are wrong -

and out-numbered…

Maybe he’s not outnumbered within his cult.
I don’t know what mormons think about excommunication OR masonry.

 

[Shiann]

Some sins, such as abortion, carry automatic excomunication, no decree needed. Other things, such as teaching heresy, require a notification of excomunication. If it has as part of it the automatic excomunication, the way to get back into the Church is typically confession, with no public renunciation. Membership in Freemasons is the same, although part of renouncing the sin in confession is having firm purpose of amendment. For something like this, that would require renouncing the group.

All that excomunication is is a banning from the sacraments and Church burial. To that end, a prohibition from communion would be a form of excommunication.

Just FYI, that is the ‘public’ renounciation. Priest is not only acting on Christ’s behalf on this Earth to pronounce forgiveness, but as a representative of our peers or society to hear our confession.

Christ initiated a way that we can seek forgiveness and receive it, without the shame and general attitude and judgment from unlearned or uncaring society/peers.

 

[zerinus]

Yes, that’s the simple fact.
What is the point of Faith if it MUST have “reasons?”
Who can even call such a thing "Faith?"

It is also possible to put your faith in the wrong thing. Who would want to have such a “Faith”?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Maybe he’s not outnumbered within his cult.

The pot calling the kettle black!

I don’t know what mormons think about excommunication OR masonry.

In the LDS Church, excommunication is an official act that can only be performed by the Church. It is like a sacrament. Just as you can’t baptize yourself, and you can’t confirm yourself, you can’t excommunicate yourself either. You can ask to be excommunicated, or to leave the Church. You can also sin to the point that you lose the Spirit of the Lord, and spiritually speaking cut yourself off from the Church. But the physical act of excommunication is an official priesthood act that can only be performed by the Church.

In the LDS Church, excommunication is theologically defined in terms of having your name removed form the membership records of the Church; and that is something that can be done (officially) by the Church, following a set procedure involving a priesthood decision. The Catholic Church will probably have a different theological definition of excommunication.

As regards Freemasonry, I am looking into it at the moment. There does not appear to be any information on it in the official handbooks of the Church—as far as I can tell. I have spoken to some bishops and former bishops; they say they don’t know for sure; but they generally seem to think it would not be a good idea, for understandable reasons. The oaths also might present a problem. My own guess is that there is no outright ban on joining Masonry. You wouldn’t lose any privileges in the LDS Church if you became a Mason. But it probably wouldn’t be recommended either.

zerinus

 

[Sir_Knight]

It is also possible to put your faith in the wrong thing. Who would want to have such a “Faith”?

zerinus

This was already addressed in an earlier thread and I noticed that you didn’t comment on it …

Nowhere in scripture or any of the early church writings can one find references to Christians embracing any of the peculiarly Mormon doctrines, such as polytheism, polygamy, celestial marriage, and temple ceremonies. If the Church of the apostolic age was the prototype of today’s Mormon church, it must have had all these beliefs and practices. But why is there no evidence of them in the early centuries, before the alleged apostasy began?

---

Galatians 1:8*** is very clear on this point … But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! … pretty much shooting down the Mormon faith & beliefs.

… care to address it now?

 

[ralphinal]

Catholic theology never made a lot of sense to me anyway, and I guess this is s case in point!

zerinus

And Mormon Theology doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, either, but this is not a matter of theological thought.

Excommunitcation and how it is resolved has more to do with Canon Law than theology. Theologically, the Church has the right to administer punishment when needed. Theologically, they can determine the way it is resolved. The methods used, however, are issues of law not religion.

 

[catharina]

This was already addressed in an earlier thread and I noticed that you didn’t comment on it …

Nowhere in scripture or any of the early church writings can one find references to Christians embracing any of the peculiarly Mormon doctrines, such as polytheism, polygamy, celestial marriage, and temple ceremonies. If the Church of the apostolic age was the prototype of today’s Mormon church, it must have had all these beliefs and practices. But why is there no evidence of them in the early centuries, before the alleged apostasy began?

---

Galatians 1:8*** is very clear on this point … But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! … pretty much shooting down the Mormon faith & beliefs.

… care to address it now?

 

[rinnie]

It is also possible to put your faith in the wrong thing. Who would want to have such a “Faith”?

zerinus

You are so right, that is why in the Bible it tells us not to let anyone mislead you from your faith, trust the leaders of the Church that God has left for us. That is the whole reasoning of God leaving the Apostles, especially Peter to keep that from happening, dont you see why else would Jesus do that. He did it to keep us from falling away from the Church. He promised us that he will always guide us, and he is still doing that today, What other Church on this earth can prove apostolic succession but the RCC. We still have our leader today, God kept his promise. The Pope is still doing what Peter did thousands of years before, what other religion can say that they can trace back to the years of our Lord Jesus Christ through Holy Orders. None that i know of. And the Pope is still keeping true to the word of our Lord. nothing has changed. What other church in this world has all the books, other than the CC, again none that i know of. Again they are the fullness of the truth, and as long as we have the Pope he will keep true to it. That is a promise from Jesus Christ himself, and to prove it the churchs still here and so is the leader the Pope. Now that is a fact for sure. No one can deny that. You still have the RCC and you still have the Pope. (hey i just thought of something that cant even be debated, it can be seen with our own eyes).