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Beautiful
Guest
… considering the life and death of Fr. Hamel, Catholic priests and all good people working out God’s Will.
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OneSheep
Guest
The Catholic Church has committed no injustices against Muslims in France, as far as I know.
I was referring to the injustices between the Shia-led govt in Iraq and the Sunni population marginalized. Our military and state dept acknowledges that the Sunni population was treated in a way that led to the rise of “IS” in Iraq. In Syria, there was a different group dominating, but there were injustices there also, propelling the formation of groups who wanted justice.
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OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning
We are called to be merciful to everyone, contrite or not, right?
When people replace self-protection with pacifism, then there is a reason to say something about self-protection.
Our God is of infinite mercy, and forgiveness is the greatest act of mercy!
Most Muslims do not ascribe to this today, as we can see in the world. The “IS” and others of the same mind are a small minority.
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We are called to be merciful to everyone, contrite or not, right?
Though I agree that forgiveness does not preclude prudence, it certainly took some hubris for a priest in New York to second guess what the Archbishop of Rouen told his flock. When people want to take revenge, it is time to remind them that we are called to turn the cheek.
When people replace self-protection with pacifism, then there is a reason to say something about self-protection.
Our God is of infinite mercy, and forgiveness is the greatest act of mercy!
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Probably not, the Church even gave land to some Muslims to build a mosque. In the USA, women students can wear the scarf in school or at work. But I believe that in France, female pupils are not allowed to wear the scarf in primary or secondary school. Many Muslims are offended by this secularist law.
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Darryl1958
Guest
Good afternoon.
What has never been explained to me in any satisfactory way is how this is the case, and nevertheless in any nation in the Middle East where democracy is tried, the inevitable result is almost invariably an Islamist government.
From Hamas in the Palestinian Authority, to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and in countries in Northern Africa where elections are curtailed precisely to prevent Islamists taking power, the small minority rules the ballot box? Even Turkey is turning Islamist without the power of the military keeping things in check.
How can that be?
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St_Francis
Guest
True, but we are not talking about those Moslems, are we? We are talking about those who are burning people alive in cages, selling girls as sex slaves, and killing priests at Mass. Let’s not conflate Moslems in general with Radical Islamist terrorists, OK?
Fr Rutler is an extremely good priest, and highly educated. Perhaps you should not second-guess him?
As to you second remark, you seem to equate defending people with revenge. That does not even make sense.
What in the words “when people are trying to kill others around you” made you think I was talking about self-protection?
And when does His forgiveness become operant *in us? *When does He cleanse our souls and remove the stain of sin?Our God is of infinite mercy, and forgiveness is the greatest act of mercy!
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St_Francis
Guest
Let’s clarify here.I looked up the definition of mercy, and the two main definitions can be divided into clemency and loving kindness.
We are indeed all called upon to show loving kindness to all whom we encounter. However, when one person is violently attacking another, to whom should we show kindness? Should we ignore the violent attack and the victim, in favor of offering the attacker tea and cupcakes?
My statement about mercy being for the contrite refers to clemency. Should we be in a position to impose a punishment on another, it would defeat the purpose of punishment to reduce it without sufficient cause.
Our God is of infinite mercy, and forgiveness is the greatest act of mercy!
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St_Francis
Guest
What injustice did the Yazidis commit to warrant being beheaded and sold into slavery?
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estesbob
Guest
Local Mosques refuse to bury them
express.co.uk/news/world/694947/French-town-refuses-to-give-Muslim-burial-to-ISIS-killers-that-murdered-priest-on-altar
express.co.uk/news/world/694947/French-town-refuses-to-give-Muslim-burial-to-ISIS-killers-that-murdered-priest-on-altar
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OneSheep
Guest
Great question, Francis!
There is a long history of Sunni Muslims perceiving the Yazidis as devil-worshipers, but we can also keep in mind that when people have possessions, others will want those possessions (including real estate, of course). This is our human nature.
Also human is the capacity to demonize/dehumanize those who stand in the way of what we want. Beheadings and other injustices do not win the hearts and minds of people, so that “they may follow Islam”. Instead, this is a matter of want, and the additional layer of ingroup/outgroup thinking.
The Daesh are not the only people in the world that think that it is “unjust” for land they think is rightfully theirs to be in the hands of a different group.
Does that answer the question?
No second-guessing at all, I said that it takes some hubris. However, in reading the article I am thinking that the hubris is more in the author of the article, which gives the impression that Fr. Rutler was quoting or replying to the Archbishop, but there is no proof that such was the case.
I did not intend to do such equating. To get a better context of the aftermath and people’s reactions, I think that the article (and especially the video in the article) that EstesBob posted is excellent.
You make a good point, and I must explain myself. When I am protecting people I love, my own love is extended onto others. Protection of those I love is still self-protection in my book, but your point and question is valid.
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OneSheep
Guest
Great article! The video in the article is also worth watching. Thanks!
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St_Francis
Guest
Accepting for the moment your apparent argument, that because Daesh believes the Yazidis have committed injustices, they are committing heinous atrocities against them, does the injustice perceived by Daesh somehow justify Daesh’s actions against the Yazidi?
Moving beyond the temporary acceptance of your argument, do you understand that the Moslem theology under which Daesh is operating teaches that it is the will of Allah that Moslems rule the world according to the strictures of Islam? Daesh is acting in accord with a long-standing view of the teachings of Mohammed, and in fact in accord with Mohammed’s actions.
If we do not understand the enemy’s motives, how can we fight them? If we think Daesh is acting from a sense of injustice rather than a sense of following Allah’s will, we will have a completely distorted view of how best to address Daesh.
Hubris on the part of the writer of the article? How do you figure that?
I have no idea how this changes, clarifies, or even relates to your statement, which was “When people want to take revenge, it is time to remind them that we are called to turn the cheek”, in response to a statement that Christians have a moral duty to defend people under attack.
When one is attempting to transmit information using a generally agreed upon form of communication such as a language, it is customary to align one’s use with general use, so that there is some connection between what one wishes to convey and the resulting idea received by the reader.
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simpleas
Guest
Hundreds of Muslims gathered at the towering Gothic cathedral in Rouen, miles from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray, where the 85-year-old Rev. Jacques Hamel was killed by two ISIS linked attackers on Tuesday.
read more: haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.734476
read more: haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.734476
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OneSheep
Guest
Well, first of all I’m not sure that the Daesh believe that the Yazidis have committed any injustices at all, other than that the Yazidis possess resources that the Daesh think would be “rightfully” theirs. Certainly, though, Daesh followers think that they are justified in taking resources and eliminating anyone standing in their way, and they think they are justified in destroying and badly treating what they see as “devil worshipers”.
There is something to be said for understanding justice from another’s point of view. I am quite certain that I am only touching the surface, for I remember that the Yazidis can also be xenophobic, just as all of us can be. When we encounter the xenophobia of others, it is easily read as animosity.
Islam has evolved over time. Some (most?) Muslims take those teachings and put them in the historical context of nationalism. Since all governments of the time were somewhat theocratical, all nations and religions have also evolve in aim and bound.
Francis, don’t you think that it is a matter of both coming into play?
I was looking at this:
The article was written in a way that gives the impression that Fr. Rutler was responding to the Archbishop, but there is no proof of this. It is the articles’ author who is setting up the differences in approach when there need be no differences at all. There is a time for protection, and there is a time for prayer and brotherhood. Clearly, based on the video in the link provided by EstesBob, the community of Rouen turned to prayer and brotherhood in the aftermath, which I think provided inspiration for all of us!
Point well taken!
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Darryl1958
Guest
Well, how can it be?
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HolyCrusader007
Guest
Really? A # of Christian European leaders throughout history have praised Saladin.
Its generally understood Saladin was a noble Muslim. When one hears the name Saladin one thinks of honor. In a similar fashion Richard I is known as the Lionheart, folks view Richard I as a noble Christian.
Saladin would have persecuted a Muslim for murdering a French Priest. Richard I would have persecuted a Christian for murdering an Arab Imam. IMO what the likes of ISIL, KKK, Third Reich(Hitler claimed to be a Christian carrying out the Lords work) LRA in Africa, even at times the IRA in Ireland…the actions of these groups goes against the religion they claim to be supportive of.
The point here is that its a fact that good peaceful and chivalrous Muslims and Christians have existed throughout history. I dont get it when folks are upset when a Muslim refuses to label an AQ attack as Radical islam and instead calls it as it is…a crime. As a Christian I would refuse to label a Klan lynching as Radical Christianity, to me it would be a crime.
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St_Francis
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There are many schools of thought in Islamm; it is not monolithic. Just as one cannot say, The Protestant belief in OSAS, without having several people point out that this is not held by all Protestants, the fact that some schools of Moslem thought focus (and have for centuries) on a peaceful interpretation of Islamic writings does not make them more Islamic than those who follow a more aggressive reading.
In fact, reading the Koran and Haddith, and seeing Mohammed’s life, which is presented as exemplary, shows that the Moslems who want to dominate the world have the stronger argument.
So why do members of Daesh think they have more of a claim on certain resources than the Yazidi do, and why do Daesh members think they have a right to Yazidi sex slaves?
OK, they believe they are entitled to everything so it is unjust for anyone else to have anything. I can’t figure out what your point is wrt their potential feeling of injustice.
I was looking at this:
The article was written in a way that gives the impression that Fr. Rutler was responding to the Archbishop, but there is no proof of this. It is the articles’ author who is setting up the differences in approach when there need be no differences at all. There is a time for protection, and there is a time for prayer and brotherhood. Clearly, based on the video in the link provided by EstesBob, the community of Rouen turned to prayer and brotherhood in the aftermath, which I think provided inspiration for all of us!
Point well taken!
meltzerboy
New member
If Muslims “who want to dominate the world have the stronger argument,” then a very large number of Muslims must really be missing out by misinterpreting their scriptures.There are many schools of thought in Islamm; it is not monolithic. Just as one cannot say, The Protestant belief in OSAS, without having several people point out that this is not held by all Protestants, the fact that some schools of Moslem thought focus (and have for centuries) on a peaceful interpretation of Islamic writings does not make them more Islamic than those who follow a more aggressive reading.
In fact, reading the Koran and Haddith, and seeing Mohammed’s life, which is presented as exemplary, shows that the Moslems who want to dominate the world have the stronger argument.
So why do members of Daesh think they have more of a claim on certain resources than the Yazidi do, and why do Daesh members think they have a right to Yazidi sex slaves?
OK, they believe they are entitled to everything so it is unjust for anyone else to have anything. I can’t figure out what your point is wrt their potential feeling of injustice.
I was looking at this:
The article was written in a way that gives the impression that Fr. Rutler was responding to the Archbishop, but there is no proof of this. It is the articles’ author who is setting up the differences in approach when there need be no differences at all. There is a time for protection, and there is a time for prayer and brotherhood. Clearly, based on the video in the link provided by EstesBob, the community of Rouen turned to prayer and brotherhood in the aftermath, which I think provided inspiration for all of us!
Point well taken!
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HolyCrusader007
Guest
Yes ISIL views Saudi Arabia, Israel, USA, France, England as Crusader states. To ISIL its a religious war.
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HolyCrusader007
Guest
Islam Condemns Violence
“Not only did the terrorists hijack planes and destroy life, but they also hijacked the peaceful religion of Islam and split the brother and sisterhood of mankind.”
(Yusuf Islam)
The sanctity of Human Life
Al- Quran 6:151
“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.”
Islam considers all life forms as sacred. However, the sanctity of human life is accorded a special place. The first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live. The Glorious Quran says:
Al- Quran 5:32
“…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”
History of Tolerance
Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up until they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan all have significant Christian and/or Jewish populations.
This is not surprising to a Muslim, for his faith prohibits him from forcing others to see his point of view. The Glorious Quran says:
Al- Quran 2:256
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.”
emuslim.com/islamagainstVoilence.asp
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