French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

[St_Francis]

Good Morning Francis,

It is very natural for humans to desire to punish wrongdoing. We are naturally compelled to do so; none of us are immune. We also have a compulsion to protect people. Both motives have their place, but when we deal with the former through prayer and forgiveness, we engage with the latter without being enslaved by resentment.

Modern U.S. soldiers are encouraged to keep a clear head in battle, not to be set on “settling the score”, but seeing the enemy as people just as we are. Their emphasis is not for the purpose of forgiveness, though, it is so that people do not make rash decisions. But you see, the letting go of the desire to punish is addressed because we humans naturally want to punish the enemy.

Yes, I join you in prayer. We can also pray that “IS”/Daesh choose to forgive and reconcile. Can you see it? If we want peace, we must pray for reconciliation. A simple laying down of arms because of weariness, a victory on one side or the other and an end to war is not the end of the problem. Look at Israel/Palestine; sure we can rejoice when aggression is stalled, but real, lasting solutions involve forgiveness and reconciliation.

So, their desire to punish, which is natural, is part of their desire for justice. It is the same for all of us, it is an activity of the conscience. Forgiveness in these situations is a non-complementary behavior, it comes from God and distracts and heals the natural tit-for-tat escalation of war. It changes the agenda.

Let’s say you see two people having a big argument, and one finally shifts his focus and apologizes for something, or he stops trying to defend his view and instead says, “I understand what you are saying, you have a good point, even though I disagree”. The shift changes the tone, it changes the agenda.

In response to your second question,it is based on my observation of human nature, but it has a lot of support from the Gospel. (nothing I observe is original) If we take the Lord’s prayer and look at the whole picture, it is forgiveness itself that helps create the Kingdom.

Forgiveness is the only action called for in the Lord’s prayer. Being part of an effort to create the Kingdom is implied, of course, but other than petitions and praise, the Lord’s prayer calls us to forgive. If we reap forgiveness, we will sow the same. Sorry to be a broken record with that statement, but hopefully the argument scenario I presented above will be an illustration of what I am talking about.

God’s Peace be with you, and all humanity.

I believe that forgiveness–not necessarily reconciliation*–is a necessary component of growing in holiness; as such, all humans are called to forgive and Catholics are taught and teach forgiveness.

However, to me that is the end (in both senses of the word). You wrote, “If we reap forgiveness, we will sow the same;” but the forgiveness we reap is forgiveness from God, not man.

We can not expect any results on the part of others from our act of forgiveness. If we forgive in the hope that the other will change as a result, then forgiveness is just an earthly tactic and loses its function in growing in holiness: if you get your reward on earth, you won’t get it in Heaven.

This is not to say that no good will ever result, only that that cannot be our goal, nor can we rely on it.

The other problem I have with what you are saying here is that it seems like you think we are the constructors of the Kingdom of God whereas I see us as the bricks, so to speak. God uses us bricks to construct the Kingdom.

In response to your second question,it is based on my observation of human nature, but it has a lot of support from the Gospel. (nothing I observe is original)

For most of us, our observations of human beings are very limited. We mostly know well others who are similar to ourselves in culture, background, and education. Few of us have or take the opportunity to really get to know very bad people.

It’s not that I don’t think they can change, on an individual basis, but that once a movement like ISIS is started, there is a replenishment with people who are not yet at the point of change.

This is why I will continue to advocate a fuller understanding of all the parts of Islamic theology and history in order to understand how best to respond.

 

[JosieN]

I believe that forgiveness–not necessarily reconciliation*–is a necessary component of growing in holiness; as such, all humans are called to forgive and Catholics are taught and teach forgiveness.

However, to me that is the end (in both senses of the word). You wrote, “If we reap forgiveness, we will sow the same;” but the forgiveness we reap is forgiveness from God, not man.

We can not expect any results on the part of others from our act of forgiveness. If we forgive in the hope that the other will change as a result, then forgiveness is just an earthly tactic and loses its function in growing in holiness: if you get your reward on earth, you won’t get it in Heaven.

This is not to say that no good will ever result, only that that cannot be our goal, nor can we rely on it.

The other problem I have with what you are saying here is that it seems like you think we are the constructors of the Kingdom of God whereas I see us as the bricks, so to speak. God uses us bricks to construct the Kingdom.

For most of us, our observations of human beings are very limited. We mostly know well others who are similar to ourselves in culture, background, and education. Few of us have or take the opportunity to really get to know very bad people.

It’s not that I don’t think they can change, on an individual basis, but that once a movement like ISIS is started, there is a replenishment with people who are not yet at the point of change.

This is why I will continue to advocate a fuller understanding of all the parts of Islamic theology and history in order to understand how best to respond.

I get your point. I think ISIS is much like a street gang. They feel a sense of brotherhood and thus will die for each other and their cause because what motivates them is glory among themselves and a loyalty for something we cannot understand.

Our forgiveness is probably meaningless to them. They may even see it as a sign of weakness. Once war becomes their priority, their reason for war is not even important anymore. When they shout “Allah is greater” as they kill someone, do they really think they have accomplished a good deed?

We can pray for them and ask Jesus Christ to heal their hearts and souls.
Then if they ask for forgiveness from Jesus Christ the Son of God, the graces which come from Him can heal them. To try to understand them and offer our sympathies and forgiveness is a man made solution. I believe that at this point only with the help of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we will see a change in their hearts and their actions.

 

[JosieN]

Hi zz,

To me, it does no good to be engaging in blame in all of this. We can understand and forgive our U.S. government for invading Iraq; I am sure that there was good intent. We can understand and forgive the Shia-led government for trying to even the score after years of subjugation by the Sunni minority. We can understand and forgive Assad for leading a cruel effort to maintain control, and for favoring certain groups within his nation. We can understand and forgive the Sunni groups for wanting justice and their own nation.

Don’t you think some blame is necessary, how else can people learn from these horrible mistakes made by governments which caused the uprisings and the death of many innocent people? You are a very forgiving person, but I think you fail to understand human nature. Our forgiveness does not heal years of war and resentment, only Jesus Christ can do that. Prayers to Him and His Holy Mother ( especially by saying the Rosary) are more powerful than any forgiveness on our part.

 

[Tomdstone]

We can understand and forgive our U.S. government for invading Iraq.

What I see is a disastrous American foreign policy of creating chaos and suffering. These American invasions of foreign countries only benefit the arms dealers and war profiteers. I would have thought that Americans would have learned their lesson in Vietnam where they spent billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of people killed, and what was the result except that the communists took over anyway. Take a look at Europe today with women being openly molested and people walking in fear of the next terrorist attack.

 

[OneSheep]

What I see is a disastrous American foreign policy of creating chaos and suffering. These American invasions of foreign countries only benefit the arms dealers and war profiteers. I would have thought that Americans would have learned their lesson in Vietnam where they spent billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of people killed, and what was the result except that the communists took over anyway. Take a look at Europe today with women being openly molested and people walking in fear of the next terrorist attack.

Well, we agree that our foreign policy is disastrous. Our U.S government supports a “friend” in the ME who behaves unjustly, and so we are seen as unjust. It is no wonder, the U.S. stands alone so often in UN security votes. We are well-intended on protecting those we favor, but the results are very counterproductive.

 

[OneSheep]

Don’t you think some blame is necessary, how else can people learn from these horrible mistakes made by governments which caused the uprisings and the death of many innocent people? You are a very forgiving person, but I think you fail to understand human nature. Our forgiveness does not heal years of war and resentment, only Jesus Christ can do that. Prayers to Him and His Holy Mother ( especially by saying the Rosary) are more powerful than any forgiveness on our part.

Hi Josie,

Jesus Christ can heal years of war and resentment through us. We are to be the light, right? Yes, prayers to Him and His Holy Mother are very powerful, but such prayer in itself will lead us to forgive, if that is what is in our hearts.

I agree that there is a place for imputing, for designation of cause and source, but blame (to think/speak evil of) is the very condition for which forgiveness is the remedy.

I am very open-minded about something I am missing in terms of human nature! What did I miss?

Blessings, and God’s Peace

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Francis,

I believe that forgiveness–not necessarily reconciliation*–is a necessary component of growing in holiness; as such, all humans are called to forgive and Catholics are taught and teach forgiveness.

Well, when we all forgive, reconciliation will follow. However, reconciliation between people is not always possible. There is a sense of holiness once we have reconciled with people, in my experience; which is the “icing on the cake” of forgiveness.

However, to me that is the end (in both senses of the word). You wrote, “If we reap forgiveness, we will sow the same;” but the forgiveness we reap is forgiveness from God, not man.

To me, it is very difficult to separate forgiveness from man and forgiveness from God. All forgiveness, all love, all mercy, all creation, ultimately has a single source. (Not that I am denying we have some autonomy; it is all very mysterious.) We are participants in the sowing of forgiveness. That might be what you meant, but only worded differently.

We can not expect any results on the part of others from our act of forgiveness. If we forgive in the hope that the other will change as a result, then forgiveness is just an earthly tactic and loses its function in growing in holiness: if you get your reward on earth, you won’t get it in Heaven.

This is not to say that no good will ever result, only that that cannot be our goal, nor can we rely on it.

You make a very good point, Francis. I may be presenting forgiveness giving the impression that forgiveness is only meaningful as a strategy. I think our goal should be reconciliation, which is in itself a growing in holiness. Like I said above, complete reconciliation is not always possible, but it is certainly a direction in growth. Growing in holiness, growing in love, growing in mercy, I think they are all tied together.

On the other hand, Jesus was somewhat strategic in His own ministry, and it is true that if all of humanity grows in holiness, more reconciliation, and peace, will follow.

I agree, we cannot rely on reaping what we sow in terms of forgiveness. It is much easier to sow anger and reap the same!

The other problem I have with what you are saying here is that it seems like you think we are the constructors of the Kingdom of God whereas I see us as the bricks, so to speak. God uses us bricks to construct the Kingdom.

I like that brick idea, but if I just lay here nothing happens. We are participants, I think. God works through us.

For most of us, our observations of human beings are very limited. We mostly know well others who are similar to ourselves in culture, background, and education. Few of us have or take the opportunity to really get to know very bad people.

It’s not that I don’t think they can change, on an individual basis, but that once a movement like ISIS is started, there is a replenishment with people who are not yet at the point of change.

This is why I will continue to advocate a fuller understanding of all the parts of Islamic theology and history in order to understand how best to respond.

Our best response is mercy, but mercy needs to be guided. Our mercy is not to exclude our own self-protection, as we have agreed.

What is the “change” that needs to occur in people? To me, it is a change of heart, which comes from awareness. Once our enemies come to realize that we are just people like they are, with all the same wants, all the same drives, and all the same value, such change of heart will happen. They are blinded by their resentment and desire for justice, and their eyes will open when they can be pulled out of the revenge loop.

And it seems to me that our own Christian forgiving is important and fruitful, but a really eye-opening forgiveness of the “IS” would be very meaningful to come from the people they have harmed the most, their fellow Muslims from tribes and villages that they have attacked. It would have to be done in a way that does not communicate condoning their actions, but it would make a very big impact.

I am really enjoying our discussion, thank you.

 

[estesbob]

But in recent times, did we hear a lot about ISIS before the US invaded Iraq?

Actually we didn’t hear anything about ISIS until Obama pulled out of Iraq

 

[JosieN]

Hi Josie,

Jesus Christ can heal years of war and resentment through us. We are to be the light, right? Yes, prayers to Him and His Holy Mother are very powerful, but such prayer in itself will lead us to forgive, if that is what is in our hearts.

I agree that there is a place for imputing, for designation of cause and source, but blame (to think/speak evil of) is the very condition for which forgiveness is the remedy.

I am very open-minded about something I am missing in terms of human nature! What did I miss?

Blessings, and God’s Peace

You may be missing this.

1. Evil is real, This is not like children having a quarrel about something. Evil lives in a person’s soul and heart when they are able to kill an innocent person (like this priest) for no sane reason.

2, Forgiveness, healing and mercy are given to us from Jesus Christ. He is the source of healing and redemption, not us.

1. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the only way to repair and heal the evil in the world. You can forgive ISIS all you like and try to reconcile with them, but do you really think that will change their hearts? We have no power to heal souls from their sins.

Have you seen this article? You may want to read it to get a better understand of what you are not understanding about human nature.

ISIS details ‘Why We Hate You’ in new magazine
foxnews.com/world/2016/08/01/isis-details-why-hate-in-new-magazine.html

 

[JimG]

William Kilpatrick worries here that if Church authorities consistently make excuses for continuing jihadist killings, it may come to be seen as the next big cover up scandal.

 

[Padres1969]

But in recent times, did we hear a lot about ISIS before the US invaded Iraq?

Daesh (ISIL) did not exist before the US invaded Iraq. In fact they didn’t exist until a couple of years ago.

 

[OneSheep]

William Kilpatrick worries here that if Church authorities consistently make excuses for continuing jihadist killings, it may come to be seen as the next big cover up scandal.

Hi Jim,

Well, Kilpatrick disagrees with the Pope, and seems to be on the side of promoting fear. There is no need to promote fear, for that is exactly what the enemy wants, and their acts will naturally do so. Obviously Kilpatrick fears Muslims.

There is a time for reasoned determination of motive, and frankly I believe the Holy Father has a better understanding of the roots of the problem than Kilpatrick does. Does Mr. Kilpatrick, for example, even know any Muslim people? Is he a person who has the vision for a long-term solution that does not involve violence? (again, not to discount the need for violent action in the short-term).

A lot of French people hashtagging “not my pope?”. Does that surprise anyone? Those same people were not likely attending those memorial services for Fr. Hamel where so many Muslims attended in solidarity. Do they know what it means to forgive their enemy?

Fear is the opposite of faith.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Josie,

You may be missing this.

1. Evil is real, This is not like children having a quarrel about something. Evil lives in a person’s soul and heart when they are able to kill an innocent person (like this priest) for no sane reason.

What you are saying makes sense in terms of our natural inclination to condemn the parts of ourselves that motivate hurtful acts. This is a natural and legitimate way of keeping our own behaviors (and those of people around us) in check. It is our first spirituality.

A spirituality that comes from reconciling with all those parts of ourselves we condemn is also legitimate. It is a spirituality informed by St. Augustine’s “through the Spirit we see that whatever exists in any way is good”.

As far as “no sane reason”, please see below.

2, Forgiveness, healing and mercy are given to us from Jesus Christ. He is the source of healing and redemption, not us.

Yes, I agree, Jesus is the source of healing and redemption. When He asks us to pray “Thy Kingdom come” it is a call to action. When he asks us to pray, “as we forgive” it is a call to action. These actions are a means of healing and redeeming the world. We are instruments of Christ’s work, the work of the Spirit, by use of the gifts He has given us.

1. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the only way to repair and heal the evil in the world. You can forgive ISIS all you like and try to reconcile with them, but do you really think that will change their hearts? We have no power to heal souls from their sins.

You are correct, we do not have the power to do so. God, working through us, has the power to do so. God, working through those vast majority of Muslims who promote peace (and hopefully forgiveness!), has the power to do so.

Have you seen this article? You may want to read it to get a better understand of what you are not understanding about human nature.

ISIS details ‘Why We Hate You’ in new magazine
foxnews.com/world/2016/08/01/isis-details-why-hate-in-new-magazine.html

Here is an excerpt from the article in Dabiq magazine by the Daesh supporter:

“you know full well that the likes of the attacks carried out by Omar Mateen, Larossi Aballa, and many others before and after them in revenge for Islam and the Muslims make complete sense. The only thing senseless would be for there to be no violent, fierce retaliation in the first place!”

So, tying this together with your first comment, you can see that the “IS” commentator is not insane, but he is blinded by resentment. We are all capable of this blindness, which manifests such that we automatically demonize/dehumanize others (as he dehumanized the gay people in the Pulse club as “sodomites”). For example, it is very natural for us to believe that the terrorists and those who support them are less than human, and worthy of an early death, but such a belief runs contrary to what we see when we forgive. When we forgive, we can still see that these people must be stopped, but we can also see them as people just like us. The commentator does not see the “sodomites” or any other “infidel” as people just like him. He sees us as an affront to Islam, worthy of destruction.

Let us not forget that people also found Jesus worthy of destruction, and He forgave them, “they know not what they do”.

So, do we agree with the commentator from Dabiq magazine and the author of the FoxNews report, that “IS” has the real version of Islam, or do we believe the Holy Father and the vast majority of Muslims who say that Islam is a religion of peace? I choose the latter.

Am I still missing something?

Thank for your response, and God Bless your day!

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

What I see is a disastrous American foreign policy of creating chaos and suffering. These American invasions of foreign countries only benefit the arms dealers and war profiteers. I would have thought that Americans would have learned their lesson in Vietnam where they spent billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of people killed, and what was the result except that the communists took over anyway. Take a look at Europe today with women being openly molested and people walking in fear of the next terrorist attack.

We can debate foreign intervention all we want, but you go a field to far for laying the blame for European women being molested. Sovereign nations in Europe have the responsibility for securing their people and their borders.

 

[JimG]

Hi Jim,

Well, Kilpatrick disagrees with the Pope, and seems to be on the side of promoting fear. There is no need to promote fear, for that is exactly what the enemy wants, and their acts will naturally do so. Obviously Kilpatrick fears Muslims.

There is a time for reasoned determination of motive, and frankly I believe the Holy Father has a better understanding of the roots of the problem than Kilpatrick does. Does Mr. Kilpatrick, for example, even know any Muslim people? Is he a person who has the vision for a long-term solution that does not involve violence? (again, not to discount the need for violent action in the short-term).

A lot of French people hashtagging “not my pope?”. Does that surprise anyone? Those same people were not likely attending those memorial services for Fr. Hamel where so many Muslims attended in solidarity. Do they know what it means to forgive their enemy?

Fear is the opposite of faith.

A quote from Mr. Kilpatrick’s article:

“Millions of Christians in the Middle East and Africa are already dead as a result of jihad violence, and millions more have been forced to flee their homes (see here and here). It’s estimated that some two million were killed by Muslims in Sudan alone between 1983 and 1995. Many of the victims were completely unprepared because they had been assured by Church leaders that Islam is a peaceful religion just like Christianity or Judaism.”

If after every deadly attack, Christian authorities continue to assure everyone that there is nothing to fear because all religions including Islam are peaceful, what are people to think as the victims’ bodies continue to pile up? No worries, have faith; because these crimes are committed in the name of a religion of peace? Or will they think that they have been misled?

 

[JimG]

“Secondly, no, the Holy Father does not need to talk about “Catholic violence” because the matter of “Islamic violence” is brought up. Logically, does this also mean that Amish elders and Methodist pastors must speak about “Amish violence” and “Methodist violence”? Why must we accept that all religions are inherently peaceful? If so, why? And does such an assumption say more about wishful thinking than about reality?”

–Carl Olson, writing in the Catholic World Report

 

[OneSheep]

A quote from Mr. Kilpatrick’s article:

“Millions of Christians in the Middle East and Africa are already dead as a result of jihad violence, and millions more have been forced to flee their homes (see here and here). It’s estimated that some two million were killed by Muslims in Sudan alone between 1983 and 1995. Many of the victims were completely unprepared because they had been assured by Church leaders that Islam is a peaceful religion just like Christianity or Judaism.”

If after every deadly attack, Christian authorities continue to assure everyone that there is nothing to fear because all religions including Islam are peaceful, what are people to think as the victims’ bodies continue to pile up? No worries, have faith; because these crimes are committed in the name of a religion of peace? Or will they think that they have been misled?

Hi Jim,

I would like to see the proof that " Many of the victims were completely unprepared because they had been assured by Church leaders that Islam is a peaceful religion just like Christianity or Judaism." If he is correct, and those “Church leaders” misled their people into believing that their enemies were not dangerous, then those Church leaders were in error, yes. But given the very long history of internal strife in Sudan, I find it hard to believe that Christians had the illusion that their enemies would be merciful. We can say that Islam is a religion of peace while we still recognize that people of every nationality and religion are capable of violence.

washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

What happened in Sudan was a struggle for power and resources. Yes, people tend to affiliate based on ethnicity, religion, etc., and people do affiliate as Muslims. This does not mean that the religion itself is violent.

We must remember that we are taught to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. We would rather that Muslim people ignore some of the more violent aspects of the Bible and not claim that Christian militias in the CAR represent true Christianity. Let us do the same unto them. We are to allow the majority of Muslims, the peace-loving ones, to do the defining. Let us give them voice, as we would rather our own voices be represented by Pope Francis than than those Christians set on condemnation.

Let’s listen to people who forgive.
Daesh/“IS” represents people who condemn.

 

[St_Francis]

Good Morning Francis,

Well, when we all forgive, reconciliation will follow. However, reconciliation between people is not always possible.

Which are you saying? These two statements contradict each other.

There is a sense of holiness once we have reconciled with people, in my experience; which is the “icing on the cake” of forgiveness.

Reconciliation brings about a natural good feeling because we got something we wanted. If I reconcile with my friend with whom I had a disagreement, I feel good because I got my friend back, right?

Reconciliation means the restoration of friendly relations; thus, it requires both sides to accomplish. I forgive because I want God to forgive me; I forgive because I want to become closer to God. *If it happens that *the other person moves in the right direction, reconciliation *may *be possible, and if it happens, then it is indeed wonderful.

However, reconciliation is *impossible *with someone who wants to cut your head off. Sorry, but all the forgiveness of the sins of Daesh against other people will not accomplish any protection for those in their path.

In order to actually accomplish something to help these poor people, we must fight.

If I take my car with a broken transmission to the shop, I do not want to hear about the benefits of having good tires, which I already have. I want them to concentrate on fixing the transmission, which is the problem. I want them to understand how transmissions work, and do something which will lead to the elimination of the problem of my transmission’s not working.

To me, it is very difficult to separate forgiveness from man and forgiveness from God. All forgiveness, all love, all mercy, all creation, ultimately has a single source. (Not that I am denying we have some autonomy; it is all very mysterious.) We are participants in the sowing of forgiveness. That might be what you meant, but only worded differently.

You make a very good point, Francis. I may be presenting forgiveness giving the impression that forgiveness is only meaningful as a strategy. I think our goal should be reconciliation, which is in itself a growing in holiness. Like I said above, complete reconciliation is not always possible, but it is certainly a direction in growth. Growing in holiness, growing in love, growing in mercy, I think they are all tied together.

On the other hand, Jesus was somewhat strategic in His own ministry, and it is true that if all of humanity grows in holiness, more reconciliation, and peace, will follow.

I agree, we cannot rely on reaping what we sow in terms of forgiveness. . .

I think we may have cleared this up.

I like that brick idea, but if I just lay here nothing happens. We are participants, I think. God works through us.

This is an analogy; one must take into account the difference in nature between bricks and people, no?

***continued below ***

 

[St_Francis]

***continued from above

---

Our best response is mercy, but mercy needs to be guided. Our mercy is not to exclude our own self-protection, as we have agreed.

What is the “change” that needs to occur in people? To me, it is a change of heart, which comes from awareness. **Once our enemies come to realize that we are just people like they are, with all the same wants, all the same drives, and all the same value, such change of heart will happen. They are blinded by their resentment and desire for justice, and their eyes will open when they can be pulled out of the revenge loop. **

If my neighbor comes over and is really mad at me and complains about how I treated the tools he lent me, and he remains angry even when I show him that I got one of them repaired for him, and did this and that to take care of them, I am puzzled by his continued anger. I continue to show him receipts and explain how I cleaned the tools, etc., but his anger does not diminish.

Then my other neighbor tells me that this first one is angry because he thinks I committed adultery with his wife. Oh, so that’s what the problem is!!!

Am I now not in a much better position to address the problem of my neighbor’s anger against me (assuming I did not commit adultery with his wife)?

This is why it is important to address the true reasoning of the Islamist radicals for their actions and recruitment. If we continue to *ignore *the roots of their actions in the theology of Islam, then we will continue to do wrong and ineffective things against them.

You wrote elsewhere:

Kilpatrick disagrees with the Pope, and seems to be on the side of promoting fear. There is no need to promote fear, for that is exactly what the enemy wants, and their acts will naturally do so. . .

. . .Let’s listen to people who forgive. Daesh/“IS” represents people who condemn.

All this is argument from emotion. Forgiving feels good!!! Let’s do more of that!!! Examining the true sources of radical Islamist violence makes us feel bad Let’s not do that any more.

When I told my children not to play in the street, I showed them how cars could hurt them. I explained that cars drive on streets. I *instilled *them with a *healthy *fear of cars and the streets they drive on, and I gave them the solution to the problem.

Facing the truth about the sources of RI violence seems to be anathema to people: why? Why are you against people showing the truth? Why are you against listening to the people committing the violence and hearing what they are saying? Whatever happened to listening circles and validating what others say?

Why is it that so many people must similarize what the RI are “feeling” to what we might feel in similar circumstances? Why must so many say, well, they are upset because we did bad things to them, and not because the RIs believe that they have a mandate from Allah to conquer the world and bring it all under submission to Allah? Why are so many afraid to look at the true sources of the violence and see how very evil people can become when they sink into sin and really bad philosophy?

And it seems to me that our own Christian forgiving is important and fruitful, but a really eye-opening forgiveness of the “IS” would be very meaningful to come from the people they have harmed the most, their fellow Muslims from tribes and villages that they have attacked. It would have to be done in a way that does not communicate condoning their actions, but it would make a very big impact.

How exactly would this work? Many of those people are dead. Most of the rest are held as slaves in the hands of Daesh. Those who are not in those situations are struggling to manage to eat and get medical care for injuries due to battle.

Are they supposed to walk up to the Daesh camp and say, hey, guys, we forgive you. Does that make any sense at all?

To be honest, God Himself does not chase after us when we are living in our sin. What does He do? He waits until we are sick of our sin, sick enough to want to do what we must to change, sick enough to *go to Him *and beg for His forgiveness.

We can sit around and forgive Daesh and think about how their actions do not arise from Islam all we want. What will happen is that their actions will continue, they will continue to attract more recruits, and they will eventually *take us over. *

Each time a mayor of a city suggests the native European girls of his town change their clothing or walk with others *instead of *acting against the perpetrators of the crimes, Daesh and its fellow RIs are taking over a little more.

Each time the social services and police of more than one city ignore the sex crimes perpetrated against the young girls who were born and raised in those towns by Moslem men *who believe their theology allows this, *Daesh and its fellow RIs are taking over a little more.

Each time newspapers refuse to print the pictures of Mohammed which sparked riots around the world; each time the government blacks out references to Islam in the writings of a killer; each time we say that we do not understand why a man—who shouted Allahu Akbar while committing violence—killed a group of people; each time we let the kidnapping of 200 girls from their school slide with only a hashtag; Daesh and its fellow RIs are taking over a little more.

You wrote about people promoting fear. It is right to promote fear when there is a reason to fear.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness; how can we forgive and yet forget the victims?

 

[JosieN]

Good Morning Josie,

What you are saying makes sense in terms of our natural inclination to condemn the parts of ourselves that motivate hurtful acts. This is a natural and legitimate way of keeping our own behaviors (and those of people around us) in check. It is our first spirituality.

A spirituality that comes from reconciling with all those parts of ourselves we condemn is also legitimate. It is a spirituality informed by St. Augustine’s “through the Spirit we see that whatever exists in any way is good”.

As far as “no sane reason”, please see below.

Yes, I agree, Jesus is the source of healing and redemption. When He asks us to pray “Thy Kingdom come” it is a call to action. When he asks us to pray, “as we forgive” it is a call to action. These actions are a means of healing and redeeming the world. We are instruments of Christ’s work, the work of the Spirit, by use of the gifts He has given us.

You are correct, we do not have the power to do so. God, working through us, has the power to do so. God, working through those vast majority of Muslims who promote peace (and hopefully forgiveness!), has the power to do so.

Here is an excerpt from the article in Dabiq magazine by the Daesh supporter:

“you know full well that the likes of the attacks carried out by Omar Mateen, Larossi Aballa, and many others before and after them in revenge for Islam and the Muslims make complete sense. The only thing senseless would be for there to be no violent, fierce retaliation in the first place!”

So, tying this together with your first comment, you can see that the “IS” commentator is not insane, but he is blinded by resentment. We are all capable of this blindness, which manifests such that we automatically demonize/dehumanize others (as he dehumanized the gay people in the Pulse club as “sodomites”). For example, it is very natural for us to believe that the terrorists and those who support them are less than human, and worthy of an early death, but such a belief runs contrary to what we see when we forgive. When we forgive, we can still see that these people must be stopped, but we can also see them as people just like us. The commentator does not see the “sodomites” or any other “infidel” as people just like him. He sees us as an affront to Islam, worthy of destruction.

Let us not forget that people also found Jesus worthy of destruction, and He forgave them, “they know not what they do”.

So, do we agree with the commentator from Dabiq magazine and the author of the FoxNews report, that “IS” has the real version of Islam, or do we believe the Holy Father and the vast majority of Muslims who say that Islam is a religion of peace? I choose the latter.

Am I still missing something?

Thank for your response, and God Bless your day!

Here is what you are missing.

God works through us, but we cannot understand what is in the killers hearts, we can only guess. God knows what is in their hearts. I am trying to tell you that once evil takes hold of a person’s heart and soul, for whatever reason (revenge, greed, etc.) there is no human way to change it by our forgiveness, only Jesus Christ, the Son of God, can heal it. You can pray for their soul, and make sacrifices for them, but only Jesus can heal what is in the soul, and bring it into the light of Christ.

Not all Muslims are hateful, you are mixing this understanding with your blind belief that the killers are not hateful, and that in some odd way they are just poor souls hurting inside or something like that. I believe they are evil and hateful. Revenge and murder are often motivated by blind hatred. You can forgive them, love them, open your arms to them, that will not change their hearts. I believe they know what they are doing is wrong, don’t you?