French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

[St_Francis]

You’re talking about terrorists and murderers but I’m talking about mutual respect between law-abiding citizens of the U.S. who come from a variety of (cultural) backgrounds. This is what Bernie Sanders stated and I think it is a worthy goal, don’t you?

Well, I’d say most people are fine with respecting law-abiding citizens, esp most people here. Why is respect for other law-abiding people an issue on a thread about non–law-abiding people and their heinous and cowardly act? --I ask not only of you but all those who are discussing it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This honestly was not shocking to me. In fact I can’t believe it doesn’t happen more.

What shocks me and concerns me more than even a priest getting his head cut off is the utter lack of understanding from even Catholics about what we are facing. It shocks me the head on the sand mentality of some who refuse to see evil for what it is. Even when thier own clergy are dying.

We are doomed.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Rip to Rev. Jacques Hamel. Hamel is a martyr.

Let me also add something very important. I believe , scratch that…I know God is watching to see how us Christians react to this story. I will say I wonder what this dead Priest would want us to say to the killer, maybe forgive the killer?

What I also know is that ISIL and AQ want people like me to abhor Islam and all Muslims. And I refuse to give into ISILs division. I stand by the Syrian and Iraqi Muslims/Christians who are united against ISIL.

Your post and your name. The most ironic thing I’ve read on these boards in a long time…

 

[7_Sorrows]

This honestly was not shocking to me. In fact I can’t believe it doesn’t happen more.

What shocks me and concerns me more than even a priest getting his head cut off is the utter lack of understanding from even Catholics about what we are facing. It shocks me the head on the sand mentality of some who refuse to see evil for what it is. Even when thier own clergy are dying.

We are doomed.

I know what you mean.

 

[Tony_Micelli]

i don’t understand why the catholic church has become so niave about islam and why the west let them in by the millions… so stupid.

pope francis doesn’t seem concerned about the islamic threat, like there is no connection between this religion and what is going on with all these mass killings.

 

[GraceSofia]

I meant the people at Mass. Now I can understand why people want to be able to conceal carry.

I would hate for armed security to have to be brought in…but with the world the way it is, they may have to be…

Soon every public place will have to have armed security. Of course the other option would be to stigmatise and ban this ideology.

I completely agree with you (The only place I am not armed is at Church or in the Doctors office).

Unfortunately, my diocese in Texas has decided to ban LTC holders from carrying at church.

I expect to hear of an attack then soon.

The “religion of peace” strikes again.

You Europeans needs to solve this. Now.

Unless you Americans halt certain types of immigration, you will have the same problem soon. You are doing exactly what Europe has done, just at a bit slower rate.

Here it is. georgiabulletin.org/news/2014/06/georgia-catholic-dioceses-ban-guns-knives-church-facilities/
It’s a good idea.
Guns have no place in the Sanctuary.
Talk about defiling the Lord’s house.

Very foolish. I expect we will be hearing about an attack in Georgia soon.

The former melting pot mentality of absorbing immigrants into the US demanded proficiency in English and pledge of allegiance. Underlying all this was a tacit acceptance of Judeo-Christian values at its basis. Sorry, but anything else, in particular, Sharia, is in direct opposition to them. Europe didn’t want to be proud of its culture and heritage, thought it is not important anymore and so now, is reaping the whirlwind.

Some Brits finally got the message and have the courage to admit publicly that England is a Christian country. But they may be too small a minority to have any affect. Europe is totally confused. With the destruction of the family, the last bastion of freedom and preservation of values, thanks to the acceptance of same-sex marriage and just about any other arrangement calling itself “family”, mixed in with abortion and euthanasia, totally against Church teaching and Orthodox Judaism, the pillars of this particular civilization have been pulverized.

The point is if there were some real opposition or push back, people understanding the need and importance for preserving their identity and culture, so much of radical Islam would have not felt so brazen and empowered.

I don’t see Americans in general being proud of their heritage, either, though. Some, but not enough. Lots of appeasement of Muslims going on. Most Brits keep quiet, but they voted with their feet-- that was why Brexit happened.

This honestly was not shocking to me. In fact I can’t believe it doesn’t happen more.

What shocks me and concerns me more than even a priest getting his head cut off is the utter lack of understanding from even Catholics about what we are facing. It shocks me the head on the sand mentality of some who refuse to see evil for what it is. Even when thier own clergy are dying.

We are doomed.

I know… I am just shaking my head here — Christians are now being martyred in the West, and if that doesn’t wake up people, I don’t know what will.

 

[Gertabelle]

i don’t understand why the catholic church has become so niave about islam and why the west let them in by the millions… so stupid.

pope francis doesn’t seem concerned about the islamic threat, like there is no connection between this religion and what is going on with all these mass killings.

And what would Pope-Francis-being-concerned-about-the-Islamic-threat look like, in your opinion?

Should he condemn Islam? Should he publicly demand all national leaders denounce Islam and makes its practice illegal? Should he declare a holy war? Should he offer a plenary indulgence to anyone who kills a terrorist?

What exactly are you hoping for?



Yikes! Last I checked, Pope Francis was the head of the Church, not a politician.

Just my two cents…

 

[GEddie]

And what would Pope-Francis-being-concerned-about-the-Islamic-threat look like, in your opinion?

Should he condemn Islam? Should he publicly demand all national leaders denounce Islam and makes its practice illegal? Should he declare a holy war? Should he offer a plenary indulgence to anyone who kills a terrorist?

What exactly are you hoping for?



Yikes! Last I checked, Pope Francis was the head of the Church, not a politician.

Just my two cents…

Praise God that Christ did NOT come to create a democracy!

I don’t agree that “we are doomed” or that parishes in dioceses that discourage guns are necessarily going to get hit, however, we were overdue for a reminder that the “old normal” for the Church is not cozy coexistence, but persecution.

ICXC NIKA

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Unless you Americans halt certain types of immigration, you will have the same problem soon. You are doing exactly what Europe has done, just at a bit slower rate…
I don’t see Americans in general being proud of their heritage, either, though. Some, but not enough. Lots of appeasement of Muslims going on. Most Brits keep quiet, but they voted with their feet-- that was why Brexit happened.

Voting, indeed! Donald Trump’s campaign is not based on appeasement at all and may represent a last ditch hope before we all sink in the Titanic.

 

[fin]

THIS.

I would upvote this a thousand times if I could.

Apart from the terrorism, there’s a HUGE problem with many in the hierarchy.

This honestly was not shocking to me. In fact I can’t believe it doesn’t happen more.

**What shocks me and concerns me more than even a priest getting his head cut off is the utter lack of understanding from even Catholics about what we are facing. It shocks me the head on the sand mentality of some who refuse to see evil for what it is. Even when thier own clergy are dying. **

We are doomed.

 

[Paganus]

The minority of people who saw this coming sounded plenty of alarms and were largely ignored. Hopefully the politically correct will now understand that it is difficult to be politically correct and fight for social justice if they are dead.

Given all that is obvious…in what manner must a Christian fight for social justice?

This is a difficult question for most to answer.

What does Jesus say?

Jesus says (in Matthew 28):

[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Are Moslems learning about Jesus and His Church in France? If not, what are they learning from their fellow French citizens?

This is not a political problem and political solutions will fail.

 

[Paganus]

This seems so medieval, a martyr at the hands of the “Saracens”.

Rumors that the Dark Ages have ended have been greatly exaggerated.

However, I count it as a great privilege that we are able to be among the first to pray for the intercession of this martyr of the Faith, Pere Jacques Hamel.

 

[DoGodsBidding]

As Tertullian would say and we pray “that the blood of the martyrs are the seed of Christians”. May our dear priest brother pray for us all as he was a martyr for the Christian faith.
mlz

Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Glory Be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.
Amen.

 

[Rosebud77]

This honestly was not shocking to me. In fact I can’t believe it doesn’t happen more.

What shocks me and concerns me more than even a priest getting his head cut off is the utter lack of understanding from even Catholics about what we are facing. It shocks me the head on the sand mentality of some who refuse to see evil for what it is. Even when thier own clergy are dying.

We are doomed.

I do not agree with your last sentence but am relieved that someone is speaking sense and reality; thank you.

The last week or so has been an epiphany for me, here in Ireland, seeing Europe engulfed in terrorist horror and learning what my advisers have been gently trying to make me aware o this last while… Nice, Germany. And now this open and direct attack on Christianity, for that is what this is.

Germany was wrong and naive to take in so many unmonitored refugees and the price is being paid now and yes we have to face this in all its horror and defend our very lives . These are implacable men. There is no reasoning with them and no pacifism will avail. This is terrorism and sheer war on Christians and countries who are of any faith.

Please God it does no accelerate and that our police forces and armed forces are able to stem this tide for that it what it means now. Please pray for them. They need and deserve it.

Sorry; am ill abed and all I can do is pray and “Keep the home fires burning” as we were taught in England in th elast war. Make sure all I know an dcare for are safe and reassured while not playing down the terrible reality./ Yes this is something my loved ones working in India face every day but this is new to us… Maybe Ireland because of the religious wars here will fare better.

 

[Rosebud77]

Jesus says (in Matthew 28):

[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Are Moslems learning about Jesus and His Church in France? If not, what are they learning from their fellow French citizens?

This is not a political problem and political solutions will fail.

Given the history of the Crusades this is the most naive and dangerous approach yet. And given so much else in the history of the church

 

[Beautiful]

Jesus says (in Matthew 28):

[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Are Moslems learning about Jesus and His Church in France? If not, what are they learning from their fellow French citizens?

This is not a political problem and political solutions will fail.

From the Magnificat Year of Mercy Companion July 26
Saint Dominic was a model of contemplative man engaged in active ministry.
Blessed Fra Angelico’s image in St. Mark’s in Venice best captures the source of Dominic’s strength : like Mary Magdalene, the Saint clings to the rough hewn wood at the feet of the crucified Lord. From such love sprang the Dominicans, the mendicant preachers, who went forth in the spirit of their founder to set the medieval world on fire.

 

[exnihilo]

Here it is. georgiabulletin.org/news/2014/06/georgia-catholic-dioceses-ban-guns-knives-church-facilities/
It’s a good idea.
Guns have no place in the Sanctuary.
Talk about defiling the Lord’s house.

It is interesting that this ban is unequally applied. It exempts agents of the state and security employees. It exempts swords if carried by certain people. I think bans like these aren’t a good idea but if the reason is guns have no place in a church why wouldn’t that be applied across the board? I consider a gun to be a tool. In itself it is neither good nor bad. Even St. Peter carried a sword and actually used it.

 

[St_Francis]

Jesus says (in Matthew 28):

[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Are Moslems learning about Jesus and His Church in France? If not, what are they learning from their fellow French citizens?

This is not a political problem and political solutions will fail.

Christ also told the Apostles to shake to dust of the town’s which refused to listen to them from their sandals, no?

ETA: which is not to say we should stop praying for their conversion…

 

[Lion_IRC]

So sad to hear Fr Paul at Mass today talking about this horrible event.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Darryl,

Pope Benedict XVI talked about mutual respect in terms of reciprocity.

I found it!

Benedict cited John Paul II’s statement that ‘‘Respect and dialogue require reciprocity in all spheres,’’ particularly religious freedom, a major issue for the Vatican in Saudi Arabia and other countries where non-Muslims cannot worship openly.

therevival.co.uk/forum/general/1827

I agree, Darryl, there is a place for a “negotiated” mutual respect in terms of religious tolerance between and within nations. The fact is, however, that true respect cannot be negotiated. Like forgiveness, it has to come from the heart.

Jesus asks us to forgive our enemies. It is forgiveness that is going to solve these ongoing problems.

One-sided apology tours are not the way to go. When it comes to the relationship with God, well then, what does he have to apologize for, but every other group of people need to understand that nobody walks through this life without leaving footprints. Even myths about Mary walking through her childhood without her feet touching the ground are not scripture, but just myths.

Jesus asks us to forgive, Darryl. There were no conditions set, remember?

It is good that Ben’s predecessor, St. Jon Paul II gave the apology on behalf of all Catholics to those of other faith traditions that Catholics have stepped on along the way. Initiating discussion through repentance is a very Catholic tradition.

But it is not as if Catholics also do not have tread marks all over their backs too in this long history between ourselves and other religionists. Mutual respect includes self-respect, and that means not making oneself into a doormat.

Catholic immigration policy is based on reciprocity. It involves not only being gracious hosts, but includes the expectation of gracious guests as well.

Love is a relationship. If it is not a two way street, than it isn’t love.

Actually Jesus said this:

New International Version
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
Matthew 5:46

Forgiveness is a matter between people and between an individual and God. Jesus does not make love or forgiveness a matter involving reciprocity. By our nature, our hearts soften towards those we forgive, and we reap what we sow.

So, the choice is ours. When we have gotten over our anger and have done what we can to control the situation, there is a time to forgive. We can either wait until the extremists apologize, which will not likely occur, and hold onto our grudges forever, or we can take the steps to forgive, and regain a holiness that was lost when we clung to anger and resentment.

Jesus, of course, calls us to the latter.

Father, please be with those who are dealing with the tragic loss of their loved ones. And for the people of the parish and all of France suffering grief, anger, resentment please be with them, and give them a means to greater security. Console them, and all of us who share in their sorrow, anger, and grief.

Father, I ask that you also give care to our enemies. For those who grieve the loss of the two men who died, give them comfort also, be with them and help them, and us, to forgive those we hold anything against. We know that you forgive those who harm us, they do not know what they are doing. We ask for your help and guidance in the process of forgiving our enemies, please guide our enemies in forgiving us.

Amen