French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

[deuterium2h]

I don’t think so. Many Greek Orthodox were sincere devout Christians who wanted to live in peace with all. But the Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade invaded the city of Constantinople, murdering many civilians, raping many nuns, drove horses with their falling excrement into their Greek churches, they committed sacrilege against the Holy Eucharist, they placed prostitutes at the altar of a Greek Church, they looted the precious icons and golden artifacts, many of which ended up in Roman Catholic churches in the west.

Hello Tomdstone,

My apologies…I didn’t mean to imply that all Crusaders (or even most) would be exemplars of martyrs who died in battle. I should have been more clear and specific. I wouldn’t consider anyone involved in war-time crimes and atrocities as deserving of being considered a martyr…especially if they were unrepentant of their crimes. Nevertheless, my original question remains…is someone automatically disqualified of martyrdom if they offered even token physical resistance to their persecutors and attempted to defend themselves??

 

[deuterium2h]

Sorry for bumping…but I am keen on hearing the opinions of other Catholics on this particular matter related to martyrdom (see my two previous posts #233 and follow-up #241).

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
John S

 

[minion]

Sorry for bumping…but I am keen on hearing the opinions of other Catholics on this particular matter related to martyrdom (see my two previous posts #233 and follow-up #241).

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
John S

I recall the Pope starting the First Crusade gave a plenary indulgence to those Crusaders who died. Don’t have a first hand source, but:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5374655&postcount=5

maybe someone more historically schooled can (name removed by moderator)ut?

my opinion, the martyrdom you took for yourself staying unarmed is unnecessary, when you could have have protected others around you, particularly other children, from danger if you were legally armed, and put yourself in danger dying (martyrdom) doing so anyway.

I’m no saint though, I welcome someone wiser than I to interject.

 

[deuterium2h]

my opinion, the martyrdom you took for yourself staying unarmed is unnecessary, when you could have have protected others around you, particularly other children, from danger if you were legally armed, and put yourself in danger dying (martyrdom) doing so anyway.

I think that is an excellent point…and that is indeed how I would foresee some of the Crusaders achieving martyrdom, as many gave their life (directly or indirectly) in the defense of fellow Christians, who were being persecuted by the Muslims.

 

[Tomdstone]

Nevertheless, my original question remains…is someone automatically disqualified of martyrdom if they offered even token physical resistance to their persecutors and attempted to defend themselves??

IMHO, no.This priest was obviously a martyr.
The present Pope and previous ones also, have been trying to support friendly relations with Islam. Many of the Muslims I know are decent people. they pray several times every day, and refrain from alcohol, their women are dressed very modestly, and at least the ones that I know refrain from the foul, gutter language that I hear on Catholic campuses.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

IMHO, no.This priest was obviously a martyr.
The present Pope and previous ones also, have been trying to support friendly relations with Islam. Many of the Muslims I know are decent people. they pray several times every day, and refrain from alcohol, their women are dressed very modestly, and at least the ones that I know refrain from the foul, gutter language that I hear on Catholic campuses.

They are also hospitable and generous. One should not underestimate the drug connection with some of the terrorists. After all, the word ‘assassination’ is derived from ‘hashish’.

 

[Rosebud77]

Only 5 people attended mass? Even our 6:30 AM mass has more.

Ah but this was a Mass for the local nuns… From a local contact

 

[Rosebud77]

Hi Rosebud,

I agree, and forgiveness takes time. We can certainly “will” it, but there is a process to go through, including allowing ourselves to be very angry and resentful.

Like you said, forgiveness does not mean that we are to trust someone who cannot be trusted. Trust, also, takes time to recover and may never during a lifetime.

What I am seeing on this thread are* valid* and important questions, such as “how do we protect ourselves?” and “do you share my anger?”. I am thinking that in the Year of Mercy (not that mercy is to be limited to a year! ) it would be good to end this thread by addressing a long-term solution, as demonstrated by Jesus. Forgiveness is a long-term solution, a solution that builds the Kingdom.

And building the Kingdom includes prayer for all people involved in the tragedy. Do you agree?

I hear you. And of course,. But the enemy here is not the same as us.
The case in my own life; my struggle in prayer to forgive did not stop further abuse from the same source. The abuse was not from me and was from the will of a person who had no faith in God and indeed hated that I had.
The day I came to forgive; the person was stalking me and I saw them drive past the house, way out of their way, as I was bringing fuel in. My whole being was filled with burning acid and I knew suddenly that the person was suffering the same. And forgiveness for them came in
It did not change the person BUT it was only after that that their stranglehold on the situation started to be eroded in the most unexpected ways and a way opened for me.

Nothing can build the Kingdom in the way you mean if you mean changing the terrorists. They are too far gone. But it can bind us together in caring and protecting each other in the love of Jesus. which IS the Kingdom. I see this in so many situations,

 

[Rosebud77]

“The Normandy tragedy and the martyrdom of Fr. Hamel is only one of a horrifying string of recent bloodbaths. This attack, though, is somehow more horrifying than the indiscriminate death of 84 people under the wheels of a truck in Nice. It is more horrifying because it is more symbolic. Instead of mass murder, it was murder at Mass. The war against the West is a war of religion. It is a war between Islam and Christianity.”

Priest Martyrdom a Warning to the West

I do not believe this simplification. based on all the other terrible murders and massacres. Nice is a prime example. No more horrifying and I do nto for a moment think Fr Hamel would agree with you … or that Jesus would.

 

[Rosebud77]

This is a great post, and something I have been thinking about for a long time. Europe is very secular,** hence my remark about so few people being at mass that day. **

I have heard there are many Muslims converting to Christianity in Europe. There are a few theories of why this is happening, one being that they would have been killed in their native countries for apostasy.

I’m wondering if God isn’t using this to bring us back to him. I see people lighting candles and holding prayer vigils at the site of the attacks.

I have posted elsewhere that this was not a parish mass but mass for the local nuns; I have a personal contact there.

 

[Rosebud77]

Priests can own guns. So can sisters. (example: blog.pennlive.com/pa-sportsman/2015/12/big_buck_special_memory_for_pe.html

In the military clergy generally don’t carry weapons only because of conventions on war naming them as noncombatants (lol), but I know of one Catholic Navy chaplain who carried a M1911 during the Korean War.

Some orders don’t allow guns, sure, because of a general prohibition on violence (Franciscans?), but that’s not a blanket statement across Catholicism.

I know nuns in wilderness settings who carry guns lest they get attacked by eg cougars… also weapons lest they get attacked by two legged predators . Just common sense. I will add here that as I was raised in the UK I never saw a real live gun ( pause to swallow… still gets me) until one day I was waiting for someone who was in the bank in a small Irish town . Money was being delivered, protected by the army with guns…I had a strong urge to get out of the car and run but one of them was in the way , gun at the ready. Another time I found msyelf walking alongside one. Freaked me out and still does.

 

[GraceSofia]

I don’t think so. Many Greek Orthodox were sincere devout Christians who wanted to live in peace with all. But the Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade invaded the city of Constantinople, murdering many civilians, raping many nuns, drove horses with their falling excrement into their Greek churches, they committed sacrilege against the Holy Eucharist, they placed prostitutes at the altar of a Greek Church, they looted the precious icons and golden artifacts, many of which ended up in Roman Catholic churches in the west.

Certainly Christians harming and killing Christians is horrible, but it is not as simple as Greek Orthodox = good and Catholics = bad. About 20 years before, the Orthodox had massacred or driven out the Catholics from Constantinople (Massacre of the Latins). Then the whole reason of how and why the armies sacked C. is complicated and quite interesting history.

I do not believe this simplification. based on all the other terrible murders and massacres. Nice is a prime example. No more horrifying and I do nto for a moment think Fr Hamel would agree with you … or that Jesus would.

Well, I think this is getting into subjective personal opinion maybe. I agree with that writer that the symbolism was stunning. It really shocked a lot of people that I know, even people who keep up with the events of jihadism worldwide.

 

[Rosebud77]

And back it up with what army?

Giving a religious response to ISIS is what they want. Keep it secular and just kick their butts (in a just and swift manner). Keep religion out of it from our side.

Agree totally. This is not a religious war but a military one. Let us pray constantly for our police and armed forces who seem to get little mention in threads here.

For our hospitals and doctors and nurses who are faced with appalling mutilations and suffering, for rescue workers in Syria who are now finding only body parts in the rubble from the latest bombings.

For families who have lost all… for our Irish navy, rescuing refugees from the oceans.

For peaceful moslems who are endangered and tainted by the actions of extremists

Let us not get focussed only on one shocking incident.

 

[Rosebud77]

Certainly Christians harming and killing Christians is horrible, but it is not as simple as Greek Orthodox = good and Catholics = bad. About 20 years before, the Orthodox had massacred or driven out the Catholics from Constantinople (Massacre of the Latins). Then the whole reason of how and why the armies sacked C. is complicated and quite interesting history.
**
Well, I think this is getting into subjective personal opinion maybe. I agree with that writer that the symbolism was stunning. It really shocked a lot of people that I know, even people who keep up with the events of jihadism worldwide.**

I do undertsand but my feeling when I realised how I myself felt was shame at that prioritising. There were small children killed in the Nice attack, many of them … I think though they have made a mistake they will did not live to regret in singling out a priest at mass . my shame too at the reaction.

 

[RPRPsych]

This honestly was not shocking to me. In fact I can’t believe it doesn’t happen more.

What shocks me and concerns me more than even a priest getting his head cut off is the utter lack of understanding from even Catholics about what we are facing. It shocks me the head on the sand mentality of some who refuse to see evil for what it is. Even when thier own clergy are dying.

We are doomed.

That’s exactly how Daesh wants us to feel.

 

[St_Francis]

It would seem that the two incidents were each horrific in different ways: Nice had the innocence of targeted children, larger numbers, and the public setting; while the martyrdom of Fr Hamel at the moment of consecration is a violation of what is most holy, and the cutting down of great holiness.

 

[OneSheep]

Well, ISIS is at war. If no one else is at war to oppose them, the outcome is predictable: surrender and submission, which is their objective. Quoting again from the linked article:

“There can be no confidence in comatose lethargy, contentious communities, concentrated materialism, or collective atheism. In the wake of the Nice attack, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls alarmingly said that France had better get used to living with terror, and that is the only conclusion for a civilization that has surrendered, and surrendered to a falsehood posing as the truth—and forcing itself upon others as the truth.”

No, the West does not have to learn to live with terror, as the French prime minister said. One only has to submit, and there will be peace.

Forgiveness of our enemies does not absolve us of the obligation to obtain victory over them.

Hi Jim,

Yes, I agree that there is an obligation to protect people. But please note that the assertion in the article:

“It is a war between Islam and Christianity.”

is a direct contradiction to this:

Pope Francis emphasized that he did not see a religious conflict. “I am not speaking of a war of religions,” he said. “Religions don’t want war. The others want war.”

He said he was referring to “a war of interests” and a war for money, resources and the “domination of peoples.”

It is good that our Holy Father has stepped in to make the comment. Those that would rather claim that this is a war between religions are not speaking the truth.

 

[OneSheep]

I hear you. And of course,. But the enemy here is not the same as us.
The case in my own life; my struggle in prayer to forgive did not stop further abuse from the same source. The abuse was not from me and was from the will of a person who had no faith in God and indeed hated that I had.
The day I came to forgive; the person was stalking me and I saw them drive past the house, way out of their way, as I was bringing fuel in. My whole being was filled with burning acid and I knew suddenly that the person was suffering the same. And forgiveness for them came in
It did not change the person BUT it was only after that that their stranglehold on the situation started to be eroded in the most unexpected ways and a way opened for me.

Nothing can build the Kingdom in the way you mean if you mean changing the terrorists. They are too far gone. But it can bind us together in caring and protecting each other in the love of Jesus. which IS the Kingdom. I see this in so many situations,

Hi Rosebud,

The way I see it, building the Kingdom is a slow process. Yes, we have to protect ourselves, but we can also listen to people:

youtube.com/watch?v=yqo1IR6_KtI

It is actually never too late to listen to people, and those of the “IS” are still people. As people, they still have hearts, they can repent, and they can forgive. This aspect of building the Kingdom may not happen until there is no “IS”, but it is a process that we can encourage by taking steps toward forgiving. What happened to the Sunnis in Iraq following the war we started was essentially revenge taken by the Shia. There was very little reconciliation, and there was a great deal of injustice.

Forgiveness is a central theme in all world religions.

Thanks.

 

[JimG]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I agree that there is an obligation to protect people. But please note that the assertion in the article:

“It is a war between Islam and Christianity.”

is a direct contradiction to this:

Pope Francis emphasized that he did not see a religious conflict. “I am not speaking of a war of religions,” he said. “Religions don’t want war. The others want war.”

He said he was referring to “a war of interests” and a war for money, resources and the “domination of peoples.”

It is good that our Holy Father has stepped in to make the comment. Those that would rather claim that this is a war between religions are not speaking the truth.

Does ISIS think that it is a war of religions? It does not matter much what we think; we need to perceive what our enemies think.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

It would seem that the two incidents were each horrific in different ways: Nice had the innocence of targeted children, larger numbers, and the public setting; while the martyrdom of Fr Hamel at the moment of consecration is a violation of what is most holy, and the cutting down of great holiness.

There is another point. This kind of terrorism got quite a lot of practice in Israel. Suicide bombings were rife until the building of a deterrent wall. Still some killers managed to get through with knives and in fact, invented the ramming vehicle.