French court orders removal of St. John Paul II statue from town square

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French court orders removal of St. John Paul II statue from town square

VATICAN CITY (CNS) — A French court has told authorities in Ploermel, France, to remove the small town’s statue of St. John Paul II on claims the statue’s placement in a public square violated the separation of church and state.

While the court said the statue’s location and size are “ostentatious” in nature, the main issue was not with the image of the pope, but rather, the public display of the statue under a cross, according to a May 6 Vatican Radio report.

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Yes, I heard about this. Very unfortunate. I guess they won’t make exceptions in almost any case.
 
Magdalenaa said:
While the court said the statue’s location and size are “ostentatious” in nature, the main issue was not with the image of the pope, but rather, the public display of the statue under a cross, according to a May 6 Vatican Radio report.
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:banghead: I’ve heard so much stuff like this in France, so and so student was forced to take off a tiny crucifix necklace or face expulsion, some Muslim girl was told not to wear a long skirt to school because it was too “religious”, etc. It’s like they’re afraid that someone is going to display something that identifies them with their faith, they want everyone to be a like-minded blob with no religion or faith. :confused:
 
The idea of separation of church and state in France is written specifically as such into law. This differs from the concept as applied in other countries such as the US, where Constitutional text has been used to form a doctrine of separation of church and state but the actual phrase appears nowhere (to my knowledge) in the code of law.

As such, the French enforce the idea rigorously because since 1905 they have had the code of law to back up doing so. France is a secular state by law. There are places I can’t go without removing or hiding the crucifix I wear around my neck. Since I didn’t grow up here, the whole thing is madness to me as it may also be to many of you who view the situation from the outside. :sad_yes:

On the other hand, there must be limits to what can be done—or what the authorities are willing to do—as there is still plenty of religion on display all over France. Churches and shrines, for example. (Note that churches whose construction predates the 1905 law belong to government and are thus public property.) Similarly, my pastor wears a Roman collar 99% of the time but he doesn’t get arrested every day. Neither does my spiritual director, who not only wears a Roman collar but also a cassock.

I don’t see how a 29-foot statue could be described as discreet, but it sounds from the article as if the village has a case for appeal on the grounds that St. JPII was a statesman as well as a cleric and the statue was erected in homage to his role as the former and not the latter. I’m curious as to how the courts will receive that argument. There are likenesses of King St. Louis IX all over France. If the intentions of Ploërmel in putting this statue of St. JPII in a public square are accepted as stated, there is juridical cause for allowing it to remain in place.

French-language articles about this situation indicate the problem is not actually the statue itself but the cross on the arch over the statue. Removal of this cross would resolve that issue, but since the sculptor refuses to allow this alteration the only solution the government sees is to remove the entire structure. The local government, however, is considering converting the statue’s site into private property, which would eliminate any conflict with the law and thus allow it to remain where it is, in its entirety. Stay tuned.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
There are places I can’t go without removing or hiding the crucifix I wear around my neck. Since I didn’t grow up here, the whole thing is madness to me as it may also be to many of you who view the situation from the outside. :sad_yes:
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Remind me never, ever to visit France. :mad: That place has Notre Dame, the world’s most famous Catholic cathedral, and then they pull this stuff. :rolleyes:
 
Micosil said:
Remind me never, ever to visit France. :mad: That place has Notre Dame, the world’s most famous Catholic cathedral, and then they pull this stuff. :rolleyes:
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As you wish, but there is still plenty of Christian beauty in France that makes it worth visiting. I recently spent a few days in Lourdes, and I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend a trip there to anyone.

The continued existence of Notre-Dame de Paris only proves my point further. Avoid France if you so choose, but I personally think it would be unfortunate. The secularity is what it is, but I prefer not to cut off my nose to spite my face.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
As you wish, but there is still plenty of Christian beauty in France that makes it worth visiting. I recently spent a few days in Lourdes, and I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend a trip there to anyone.

The continued existence of Notre-Dame de Paris only proves my point further. Avoid France if you so choose, but I personally think it would be unfortunate. The secularity is what it is, but I prefer not to cut off my nose to spite my face.
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Where precisely is the secularism more obvious, though? In larger cities? I assume Lourdes is less of an issue with these things?
 
French started enforcing this to the letter after muslim extremists tryed to blow up a train station.

They think that “if little girls can’t show their faith, nobody will be annoyed for seeing symbols of other faiths, and though that, nobody will try to blow up their neighbours”. They forget that extremists will always try to blow up people, even if there are no crosses in churches or arround people’s necks.

The removal of the statue is a follow up on this. It’s not “the church and state must be separated”. It’s “we can’t antagonize the muslims” thing, since arround 60% of the current french active popolation is muslim or muslim descendant. Those are the unfortunate consequencies that the decolonization process had in Europe.

And now, instead of more tolerance, we have legal intolerance.
 
SilverAvenger said:
French started enforcing this to the letter after muslim extremists tryed to blow up a train station.

They think that “if little girls can’t show their faith, nobody will be annoyed for seeing symbols of other faiths, and though that, nobody will try to blow up their neighbours”. They forget that extremists will always try to blow up people, even if there are no crosses in churches or arround people’s necks.

The removal of the statue is a follow up on this. It’s not “the church and state must be separated”. It’s “we can’t antagonize the muslims” thing, since arround 60% of the current french active popolation is muslim or muslim descendant. Those are the unfortunate consequencies that the decolonization process had in Europe.

And now, instead of more tolerance, we have legal intolerance.
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I see, that is an interesting perspective. I was speaking to some friends elsewhere, and it was said that France had a general distaste of matters religious after the Revolution, and that was the cause of this.
 
Micosil said:
Where precisely is the secularism more obvious, though? In larger cities? I assume Lourdes is less of an issue with these things?
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Secularism exists side by side with the religious. In large cities, in small cities, in the suburbs, in the countryside. There are, of course, certain regions that have stronger ties historically to religion than others, and that has an impact of varying degrees on the present-day social climate in those regions. I have not, however, seen places that are more obviously secular than religious nor places that are more obviously religious than secular. In general. (I feel like I am not explaining myself well.)

On a social level I noticed a lot of behavior in Lourdes, perpetrated almost exclusively by the locals, that is incompatible with living a faithful Christian life. I wasn’t there long enough to be able to comment on the town’s politics.
SilverAvenger said:
French started enforcing this to the letter after muslim extremists tryed to blow up a train station.

They think that “if little girls can’t show their faith, nobody will be annoyed for seeing symbols of other faiths, and though that, nobody will try to blow up their neighbours”. They forget that extremists will always try to blow up people, even if there are no crosses in churches or arround people’s necks.

The removal of the statue is a follow up on this. It’s not “the church and state must be separated”. It’s “we can’t antagonize the muslims” thing, since arround 60% of the current french active popolation is muslim or muslim descendant. Those are the unfortunate consequencies that the decolonization process had in Europe.

And now, instead of more tolerance, we have legal intolerance.
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From what I have witnessed, the French government is all about secularism and has little to no regard for who might be offended by their defense of it, including Muslims but by no means limited to them. Yes, the terrorist attacks of recent memory do play a role. But in the end, what I see is a France that is extremely protective of its religion-free governance. Any belief-based challenge is seen as a threat to this system, no matter where it comes from.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
Secularism exists side by side with the religious. In large cities, in small cities, in the suburbs, in the countryside. There are, of course, certain regions that have stronger ties historically to religion than others, and that has an impact of varying degrees on the present-day social climate in those regions. I have not, however, seen places that are more obviously secular than religious nor places that are more obviously religious than secular. In general. (I feel like I am not explaining myself well.)

On a social level I noticed a lot of behavior in Lourdes, perpetrated almost exclusively by the locals, that is incompatible with living a faithful Christian life. I wasn’t there long enough to be able to comment on the town’s politics.

From what I have witnessed, the French government is all about secularism and has little to no regard for who might be offended by their defense of it, including Muslims but by no means limited to them. Yes, the terrorist attacks of recent memory do play a role. But in the end, what I see is a France that is extremely protective of its religion-free governance. Any belief-based challenge is seen as a threat to this system, no matter where it comes from.
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Hm, that is interesting. I was curious because, on second thought, if Lourdes has less aggressive secularization going on, maybe a short trip there may be worth it.
 
Micosil said:
Hm, that is interesting. I was curious because, on second thought, if Lourdes has less aggressive secularization going on, maybe a short trip there may be worth it.
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Less aggressive than where? I would hardly call what is happening in Ploërmel “aggressive.” In fact, the local authorities are trying to find a way to keep the statue where it is, intact. If secularism there were “aggressive,” they’d just remove the statue and be done with it now that the region’s administrative court has so ordered it.

A trip to Lourdes is always worth it. I would never tell anyone not to go there.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
Less aggressive than where? I would hardly call what is happening in Ploërmel “aggressive.” In fact, the local authorities are trying to find a way to keep the statue where it is, intact. If secularism there were “aggressive,” they’d just remove the statue and be done with it now that the region’s administrative court has so ordered it.

A trip to Lourdes is always worth it. I would never tell anyone not to go there.
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I wasn’t refering to the statue now, but rather how one is forced to remove or hide a crucifix from your neck, as you said you had to do in certain places – those are the kinds of places I want to avoid.
 
Micosil said:
I wasn’t refering to the statue now, but rather how one is forced to remove or hide a crucifix from your neck, as you said you had to do in certain places – those are the kinds of places I want to avoid.
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Then don’t go into any public primary or secondary schools in France. You should be fine otherwise.
 
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