French kissing

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Bookcat said:
No you said I said it was per se intrinsically evil.
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No, I was specifically referring to PREMARITAL french kissing. Not just french kissing itself.

Do you think premarital french kissing is ALWAYS sinful, in and of itself? Not an occasion of sin, not just a temptation, but an actual SIN itself?

If your answer is still a “yes,” that would conclude that you think premarital french kissing is intrinsically evil. Unless of course, you changed your mind.
 
Debora123 said:
Haha, I know right? Some people think you shouldn’t kiss at all until you’re married.

While I do respect a couple’s decision to do that, I wouldn’t appreciate it if someone came out and told me that doing so is wrong and that I’ve sinned. That’s the type of stuff that makes me mad.
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It’s funny, but I’ve had different viewpoints on this.

As a backslidden Protestant, the question was moot because I was having sex anyway.

As a real spiritual Protestant, I was able to French kiss just fine because even if I got aroused, I knew how to take care of it once I got home. (Sorry for being graphic)

As a Catholic-minded person, I cannot take care of it 😦 . So I will probably err towards the chaste peck side. We shall see what happens once I go on my date with the next fine, Catholic man. 😃
 
Debora123 said:
Do you think premarital french kissing is ALWAYS sinful, in and of itself? Not an occasion of sin, not just a temptation, but an actual SIN itself?

If your answer is still a “yes,” that would conclude that you think premarital french kissing is intrinsically evil. Unless of course, you changed your mind.
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…I have expressed my thinking on this in several times on this thread.

And I should again note that an occasion of sin can already be sinful to remain in or enter willingly…
 
TrueLight said:
It’s funny, but I’ve had different viewpoints on this.

As a backslidden Protestant, the question was moot because I was having sex anyway.

As a real spiritual Protestant, I was able to French kiss just fine because even if I got aroused, I knew how to take care of it once I got home. (Sorry for being graphic)

As a Catholic-minded person, I cannot take care of it 😦 . So I will probably err towards the chaste peck side. We shall see what happens once I go on my date with the next fine, Catholic man. 😃
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It all depends on what you can handle. My husband and I handled it just fine without crossing our boundaries. French kissing is an occasion of sin, as is simply spending alone time together with your date, amongst many other things. But it is not wrong in and of itself.
 
A few selections
Bookcat said:
French kissing is pretty much by nature in the “directly stimulating actions” that you will note in he article from EWTN are never to be done by the unmarried.

such really is to be left to the married…

Directly stimulating things…are not just near occasions …they are the very matter for sins against the virtue of chastity.

(though deliberately entering or remaining in near occasions can be sins too)

It would seem to me that such kissing is pretty much by nature in the directly stimulating category.

I can not see such as just a chaste sign of affection for the unmarried…it is directly orientated towards arousing…as a form of foreplay in marriage.
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Bookcat said:
Again I would say that French kissing…which by nature involves the tongue to tongue is in then area of the things to not do…until marriage.

You will note that the article divides into two parts…the first part speaks of things that can never be done by those who are unmarried…for they are direct stimulation.

French kissing would be more in that category I would think… It by its very nature is not an ‘affection’ sign for those who are not married…it is rather more in the area of direct stimulation.

Now can it happen that there are some that it does not have its usual effects on? Sure.
Does that mean that it is then a good sign of affection for them? I would not argue such. Despite what our culture tells us in the movies…it really is not such for those who are unmarried. I mean why are tongues meeting?? (for the unmarried). The kiss has a meaning in human culture and kissing on the lips has a further meaning…but kissing with ones tongues…seems to have more of a strictly marital meaning.
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Bookcat said:
If a person goes to a doctor and needs to undress for an exam…that is one thing.

if a person undresses for their date as part of their time together…that is another.

Undressing is not an intrinsically evil act.

But undressing for ones date is going to be sinful any which way you slice it…and is going to be in the area of things that never should be done.

Such an act is only for the married. Even though it is not intrinsically evil to undress always and everywhere…

The point about French Kissing …is that it is really something that of its nature is directed toward sexual pleasure…or “stimulation”

and just as there may be some odd person who would not be aroused by the removal of clothing …this does not mean that they should go ahead and get naked… same thing in regards to French kissing…just cause some particular person is less-sensitive to such…does not mean they should engage in it prior to marriage.

And again why would anyone want to put ones tongue in the mouth of ones date ??

It is really not a sign suited to the relationship.

Such is suited to some marriages…
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Bookcat said:
Read them again (your fast post tells of quick reading)
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You forgot this one:
Bookcat said:
It is not just a matter of a near occasion of sin.

Nor is it only a matter of what tempts on to fornication. The direct seeking of sexual pleasure outside of marriage is grave matter for mortal sin…in any what that it is sought.

And some actions are simply that and can not be done for any good reason…they are not like chaste kissing or holding of the hands…but are really to be reserved for marriage. To engage in them otherwise is to engage in and act of lust.

***It would seem to me that French kissing …seems to be more of that sort of act. ***
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Sounds like an intrinsic evil to me.
 
Bah, this is silly.

I apologize to Bookcat for dragging it out for so long… for it was out of no other purpose than to try and prove myself right about a very brief explanation I gave to Elizabeth. Very silly and immature of me. :rolleyes:

I have posted my views and given my opinion. Time to depart now. 🙂

Have a good day everyone!
 
But there is some ambiguity in the AAA response:
For the unmarried, especially for the young, this type of kissing, which prepares the body for sexual relations, is inappropriate to the chastity expected of single people and could possibly constitute grave matter. Whenever a single person is uncertain whether the physical affection he has shared with another person is appropriate to a chaste relationship, he should ask his confessor who will be able to advise him.
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(The first portion of the response --not quoted-- is more definitive – and negative.)

I would call it ‘dark gray’ matter. 😃 To be allowed if both members of the couple are mature enough to know their separate boundaries/weaknesses, but for many if not most couples, one or both are likely to be aroused. The AAA response was also to a 15-year-old, not of someone with more maturity and self-control, perhaps, about temptations, limits, etc.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
But there is some ambiguity in the AAA response:

(The first portion of the response --not quoted-- is more definitive – and negative.)

I would call it ‘dark gray’ matter. 😃 To be allowed if both members of the couple are mature enough to know their separate boundaries/weaknesses, but for many if not most couples, one or both are likely to be aroused. The AAA response was also to a 15-year-old, not of someone with more maturity and self-control, perhaps, about temptations, limits, etc.
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She says…“especially” for the young…but does not say that it is ok for others…and she knows others will read it …which is why directs it toward the “unmarried”.

No where does she say it is permissible.

And the last sentence is a general exhortation regarding when anyone is uncertain about any physical affection to bring it up in confession. Such was a general remark about various other questions that could come up for the person not a remark …about French Kissing (which she already addressed prior).
 
Bookcat said:
She says…“especially” for the young…but does not say that it is ok for others…and she knows others will read it …which is why directs it toward the “unmarried”.

No where does she say it is permissible.
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But neither does she say categorically, universally grave. She says:
inappropriate to the chastity expected of single people and could possibly constitute grave matter.
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IOW, in general, avoid it, and the young should especially avoid it.

I repeat: Each person (less so, those who are young) tends to know what his or her limits are. Some people need very little to constitute temptation to the point of ‘no return.’ Others have enormous self-mastery. And some people have fewer active erogenous zones altogether (apparently, according to some on this thread). Sexual response varies by individual, but in general French kissing is probably borderline for many, if not most, people.

As with all sin and occasions of sin, it’s important to know oneself. Some people have to avoid gossip situations entirely, because they cannot refrain from adding to the negativity. Etc.
 
And again French Kissing really is not for the unmarried…

aside from all the rest that has been stated in this thread…why on earth would one put ones tongue inside the mouth of another?? (outside the state of marriage where such stimulation can find its proper place if they so choose to engage in it)

putting ones tongues in each others mouths is really not a sign of “affection” for the dating…
 
Bookcat said:
putting ones tongues in each others mouths is really not a sign of “affection” for the dating
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…

I couldn’t agree more… and I am engaged. If we kissed like that, I know we’d both feel that we took something that didn’t belong to us yet. That and we’d both be in the confessional over it.
 
Bookcat said:
And again French Kissing really is not for the unmarried…
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For the fourth time, in general, yes. That’s what the AAA response says. I have not contradicted that. Don’t twist my words, but also do not twist the words of the apologist. She said it “could be grave matter,” not that it definitely is in all cases.
aside from all the rest that has been stated in this thread…why on earth would one put ones tongue inside the mouth of another?? (outside the state of marriage where such stimulation can find its proper place if they so choose to engage in it)
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You should direct your question to anyone who has stated that he or she does so. I have not stated that. I do consider it provocative, for me. Clearly some others do not, and they have stated so. Do you have definitive knowledge about the temptations and responses of others? We are each called to monitor our levels of temptation.

As I said earlier, just as for some people it would be best (even if not “addicted”) that they not be around certain occasions of sin for them – such as gambling, alcohol, gossip – others are perfectly fine with those temptations. There are some people who cannot refrain from adding their voice to destructive gossip; others are able to let it roll right over them, change the subject, etc. For others it is like a magnet which tempts toward outright viciousness. Thus, we are counseled by those wiser than us to avoid idle gossip, or even listening to it or countenancing it. In some extreme cases, the very company of specific individuals needs to be avoided, because of their reputation for gossiping, by someone who finds that a serious occasion of sin for themselves.

Sexual response is not uniform throughout human biology. It varies. Some people can’t even go dancing because it is too suggestive for them. Others are able to separate that activity from intimate sexual feelings. How would you know what affects all others, even if one can say that there is certainly a general tendency to experience French kissing as erotic, to a greater or lesser degree. Personally, I find it rather intimate and provocative. It would be too strong a temptation for me, too connected with sex itself. It is just not up to us to deny that for some others, it might not be. Different bodies.
 
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