Friday Abstinence; Obligation?

[thistle]

The Chruch say some from of penence must be done. If I the U.S. it does not have to be abstainence, but some form. There fore since the Church says it is a sin not to prform some form of penence, It matters not what Mr. Atkins says. Also in the articule he states
“Ultimately, the Code means what Rome says it means, and Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States.”

Thus it is still a sin not to do some form of penence for Catholics on fridays in the U.S. even acording to Mr. Atkins.

Actually that is not what he says which is why I’m querying it.

For example, he says:

“Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”). Thus no obligation is created.”

“As a result, there appears to be no legal obligation in the United States to practice penance on Friday, but Friday remains a day on which the bishops have urged all to do penance and, in particular, recommended the continued practice of abstinence.”

“The fact that the bishops nowhere state an alternative obligation thus indicates that one does not exist. Legal obligations do not exist if they are not legislated.”

"Thus we conclude that the American bishops have exercised their competence, later acknowledged by canon 1253 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, to “determine more precisely” the observance of abstinence by restricting the obligation to do it to a few days a year (Ash Wednesday, the non-solemnity Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday—the last being part of the Triduum rather than Lent) and by** recommending the continued practice of abstinence and other penances on other Fridays**.

In doing so, they did not completely eliminate the legal obligation to do penance on Fridays. They restricted the legal obligation to certain Fridays of the year and replaced it with an exhortation to penance on the remaining Fridays."

“The commentary on canon 1253 summarizes the U.S. obligations and recommendations without indicating that a legal obligation to do penance continues to exist on typical Fridays of the year.”

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Actually that is not what he says which is why I’m querying it.

For example, he says:

“Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”). Thus no obligation is created.”

“As a result, there appears to be no legal obligation in the United States to practice penance on Friday, but Friday remains a day on which the bishops have urged all to do penance and, in particular, recommended the continued practice of abstinence.”

“The fact that the bishops nowhere state an alternative obligation thus indicates that one does not exist. Legal obligations do not exist if they are not legislated.”

"Thus we conclude that the American bishops have exercised their competence, later acknowledged by canon 1253 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, to “determine more precisely” the observance of abstinence by restricting the obligation to do it to a few days a year (Ash Wednesday, the non-solemnity Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday—the last being part of the Triduum rather than Lent) and by** recommending** the continued practice of abstinence and other penances on other Fridays.

In doing so, they did not completely eliminate the legal obligation to do penance on Fridays. They restricted the legal obligation to certain Fridays of the year and replaced it with an exhortation to penance on the remaining Fridays."

“The commentary on canon 1253 summarizes the U.S. obligations and recommendations without indicating that a legal obligation to do penance continues to exist on typical Fridays of the year.”

So we listen to Mr. atkins and not the Chruch?

 

[jmcrae]

Actually that is not what he says which is why I’m querying it.

For example, he says:

“Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”). Thus no obligation is created.”

“As a result, there appears to be no legal obligation in the United States to practice penance on Friday, but Friday remains a day on which the bishops have urged all to do penance and, in particular, recommended the continued practice of abstinence.”

“The fact that the bishops nowhere state an alternative obligation thus indicates that one does not exist. Legal obligations do not exist if they are not legislated.”

"Thus we conclude that the American bishops have exercised their competence, later acknowledged by canon 1253 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, to “determine more precisely” the observance of abstinence by restricting the obligation to do it to a few days a year (Ash Wednesday, the non-solemnity Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday—the last being part of the Triduum rather than Lent) and by** recommending** the continued practice of abstinence and other penances on other Fridays.

In doing so, they did not completely eliminate the legal obligation to do penance on Fridays. They restricted the legal obligation to certain Fridays of the year and replaced it with an exhortation to penance on the remaining Fridays."

“The commentary on canon 1253 summarizes the U.S. obligations and recommendations without indicating that a legal obligation to do penance continues to exist on typical Fridays of the year.”

He is being a lawyer for the prosecution, here, interpreting words opposite to the way that the suspect really intended, to use them against the suspect.

Obviously, if someone says, “I urge you to” do this or that, it means they want you to do it. The Bishops want us to do penance on Fridays.

Jimmy’s interpretation that “urge” means we don’t really have to is nothing but a distraction from the point at hand, which is that the Bishops “urge” us to - that is, they would like it very much if we would abstain from meat on Fridays, or if we can’t do that, then undertake some other form of penance.

We need to listen to the Church as we listen to our mothers; not as we listen to our enemies.

We should not be thinking, “What is the least I can get away with based on a literalistic interpretation of the law,” but rather, “how can I best please my Lord Jesus and my Mother the Church?”

If we take that attitude, everything becomes very simple - just do it, to the best of your ability.

 

[thistle]

So we listen to Mr. atkins and not the Chruch?

Did you not read my posts before making a silly comment like that.
I already said I believe Friday penance outside Lent is an obligation. I also said that Jimmy Akin does NOT speak for the Chucrh.
If you had been paying attention I was simply asking why a respected Apologist of Catholic Answers says there is no obligation and wanted other people’s opinions on his article and where the flaws in his argument are.
Have you got it now???

 

[Bookcat]

Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday still remain “days of Penance” (except when Solemnities)…even if in the US there is no obligation …

So let us do penance…let us choose to do something…prayer, almsgiving, fasting etc

we all need penance…and such is part of the Christian life…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Did you not read my posts before making a silly comment like that.
I already said I believe Friday penance outside Lent is an obligation. I also said that Jimmy Akin does NOT speak for the Chucrh.
If you had been paying attention I was simply asking why a respected Apologist of Catholic Answers says there is no obligation and wanted other people’s opinions on his article and where the flaws in his argument are.
Have you got it now???

In the articule Mr Atkins also says

                "Ultimately, the Code means what Rome says it means, and Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States."

From that statement it appears to me He is in agreement with the Church on the matter.
You keep saying he say that it is different than what the church says, so I asked you who we should listen to. However, from that line in his articule he is saying to listen to the Church.
Have you got it now?

 

[thistle]

In the articule Mr Atkins also says

                "Ultimately, the Code means what Rome says it means, and Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States."

From that statement it appears to me He is in agreement with the Church on the matter.
You keep saying he say that it is different than what the church says, so I asked you who we should listen to. However, from that line in his articule he is saying to listen to the Church.
Have you got it now?

He is saying it means it is not an obligation.

Got it???

 

[Bookcat]

He is saying it means it is not an obligation.

Got it???

as have others …such as those in Canon Law and Moral Theology…(they along with Jimmy …arguing that in the US this is not an obligation …as per the Church)

(personally I have been on both sides of this fence at one time or another…I can see aspects of the arguments on both sides…)

This will be of interest: usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

Anyhow…in any case…

Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday still *remain *" days of Penance" (except when they are Solemnities)…even if in the US there is no obligation …

So let us do penance…let us choose to do something…prayer, almsgiving, fasting etc

we all need penance…and such is part of the Christian life…

as they USCCB site page notes…we are “urged” to prepare for Sunday each week …with penance on Friday… so lets live this exhortation…for it is good for us and is part of Christian life…

One could even add penance on Weds. The early Christians would fast on Wed.s and Fridays…usually from morning until the 9th hour (3pm) …(from everything! …man I would still need my coffee…but they did not know Coffee…hee hee)

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

as have others …such as those in Canon Law and Moral Theology…(they along with Jimmy …arguing that in the US this is not an obligation …as per the Church)

(personally I have been on both sides of this fence at one time or another…I can see aspects of the arguments on both sides…)

This will be of interest: usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

Anyhow…in any case…

Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday still *remain *" days of Penance" (except when they are Solemnities)…even if in the US there is no obligation …

So let us do penance…let us choose to do something…prayer, almsgiving, fasting etc

we all need penance…and such is part of the Christian life…

as they USCCB site page notes…we are “urged” to prepare for Sunday each week …with penance on Friday… so lets live this exhortation…for it is good for us and is part of Christian life…

One could even add penance on Weds. The early Christians would fast on Wed.s and Fridays…usually from morning until the 9th hour (3pm) …(from everything! …man I would still need my coffee…but they did not know Coffee…hee hee)

So then why does he say

"thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States"

I would say that does support him saying it is an obligation.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Why is it an obligation to do anything at all on Friday, though? Why is anything required of us? I’m mostly thinking of those Protestant objectors who say we are earning our salvation by works or act as though we are under the burden of some external Law, while we should only be under the freedom of grace.

Does this relate well to binding and loosing in Matthew 18:18? And how can we answer those who object to these Friday practices as mere works or Catholic law?

 

[jmcrae]

Why is it an obligation to do anything at all on Friday, though? Why is anything required of us? I’m mostly thinking of those Protestant objectors who say we are earning our salvation by works or act as though we are under the burden of some external Law, while we should only be under the freedom of grace.

Does this relate well to binding and loosing in Matthew 18:18? And how can we answer those who object to these Friday practices as mere works or Catholic law?

It’s not about “earning our salvation,” but rather, becoming physically connected with the Gospel truth, and making it part of our lives. We give up meat (carne) on Fridays to remember that Jesus gave up His flesh (carne) for us on a Friday. In so doing, we unite our small sacrifice with His great sacrifice - not because we think our sacrifice can do anything to save us, but as a way to include the experience of His sacrifice into our everyday experience.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I look at it thi way I am obligated to my family. This means out of my love for them there are things I have to do. the same with god there are things required of us. These obligation are the bare minimum that is needed to express my love for God and what he has given me and done for me.

When confronted with issues such as this it is not a “I have to do, but an I get to do” the reason for making it on a certain day and as certain thing is so that all of Christ Church is on unio0n with one another.

So in saying that I guess I am changing my stance no we do not have to do pence on fridays, we get to, in union with each other. I know for me I get a special feeling when I go into one of the local fish resturants on a friday and see others from y parish there. I don’t have to say anything I know that they to are doin what the church asks.

 

[Lampo]

the Universal Law of the Chruch is that all Friday are days of Penence. in the U.S. During Lent us must abstain from meat. All other Friday of the (unless they are a feast day or solemnity) are still days of penence although you can still abstain from eating meat you may choose some other form of penence outside of Lent.

So to answer your 1uestion to not do some pencence on fridays is a sin.

Well, it’s Friday and I need to know if it is indeed an obligation for me to do some type of penance today. I’ll probably do one just to be safe. Your interpretation is the direct opposite of Mr. Akin’s. Which one is right? Why would Jimmy Akin want to mislead? I’d think if the USCCB said it is an obligation, then Mr. Akin would say so.

The key word is urge. To me, *urge *is not the same thing as mandate. The Church *mandates *that Catholics go to Confession at least once a year and to receive Communion during Lent at the very least. Wouldn’t it be accurate to say the Church urges Catholics to go more frequently but is not mandated?

 

[Lampo]

However, I would like someone to read the article I gave the link to. Its by Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers (this website we are on). He’s a respected apologist of this website.
He has gone through the Church teachings, canon law and what instructions were given by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on fasting and penance and he says it is not binding under pain of sin.
I can’t find a flaw in his arguement. I would like someone to read his article and tell me where he is wrong (if he is).

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501bt.asp

I have read the article, and it makes total sense to me.

 

[Lampo]

So we listen to Mr. atkins and not the Chruch?

Why would Mr. Akin want to differ from the Church and mislead Catholics?

 

[Lampo]

He is being a lawyer for the prosecution, here, interpreting words opposite to the way that the suspect really intended, to use them against the suspect.

Why do you suspect he is doing that?

Obviously, if someone says, “I urge you to” do this or that, it means they want you to do it. The Bishops want us to do penance on Fridays.

But that’s not the same thing as mandating it. The Bishops want us to go to confession regularly, but only *mandate *it once a year.

Jimmy’s interpretation that “urge” means we don’t really have to is nothing but a distraction from the point at hand, which is that the Bishops “urge” us to - that is, they would like it very much if we would abstain from meat on Fridays, or if we can’t do that, then undertake some other form of penance.

Again, not the same thing as mandating it. Why would Jimmy Akin want to distract?

We need to listen to the Church as we listen to our mothers; not as we listen to our enemies.

I’d hardly call Jimmy Akin an enemy.

We should not be thinking, “What is the least I can get away with based on a literalistic interpretation of the law,” but rather, “how can I best please my Lord Jesus and my Mother the Church?”

I’m not thinking, “What is the least I can get away with.” I just want to know the truth so I can be accurate when I tell others.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Why would Mr. Akin want to differ from the Church and mislead Catholics?

Why does everone seem to miss this line from Mr. Atkins articule.

                 In the articule Mr Atkins also says

“Ultimately, the Code means what Rome says it means, and Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States.”

I do not think that he wants to differ or mislead. He is trying to clearify.

There is an old saying " Rome has spoken, case closed."

Rome has stated that Fridays are days of penence, the Bishops of the U.S. and veryious other country have stated that instead of abstainence some other form may be observed.

In regard to the word urge. The law states what the speed limit is on the roads. and then they urge you to obey it. If not you pay the consequences of not doing so.

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

So then why does he say

"thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States"

I would say that does support him saying it is an obligation.

The full quote was, “Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States.”

Gramatically, it most likely refers to On Penance and Abstinance. In his article he argues that On Penance and Abstinence urges but notably does not oblige abstinance nor penance on most Fridays.

His final statement offers further evidence in support of his conclusion:

"The commentary on canon 1253 summarizes the U.S. obligations and recommendations without indicating that a legal obligation to do penance continues to exist on typical Fridays of the year. "

 

[Lampo]

Why does everone seem to miss this line from Mr. Atkins articule.

                 In the articule Mr Atkins also says

“Ultimately, the Code means what Rome says it means, and Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States.”

I didn’t miss that. I also didn’t miss Mr. Akin saying,

“Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”). Thus no obligation is created.”

“As a result, there appears to be no legal obligation in the United States to practice penance on Friday, but Friday remains a day on which the bishops have urged all to do penance and, in particular, recommended the continued practice of abstinence.”

“The fact that the bishops nowhere state an alternative obligation thus indicates that one does not exist. Legal obligations do not exist if they are not legislated.”

"Thus we conclude that the American bishops have exercised their competence, later acknowledged by canon 1253 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, to “determine more precisely” the observance of abstinence by restricting the obligation to do it to a few days a year (Ash Wednesday, the non-solemnity Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday—the last being part of the Triduum rather than Lent) and by recommending the continued practice of abstinence and other penances on other Fridays.

In doing so, they did not completely eliminate the legal obligation to do penance on Fridays. They restricted the legal obligation to certain Fridays of the year and replaced it with an exhortation to penance on the remaining Fridays."

“The commentary on canon 1253 summarizes the U.S. obligations and recommendations without indicating that a legal obligation to do penance continues to exist on typical Fridays of the year.”

I’m still confused.

 

[Bookcat]

Why does everone seem to miss this line from Mr. Atkins articule.

                 In the articule Mr Atkins also says

“Ultimately, the Code means what Rome says it means, and Rome confirmed On Penance and Abstinence, thus making it the law for Latin Catholics in the United States.”

Right …and in saying so he is saying that Rome confirmed that US Catholics are NOT obliged outside of Lent and Good Friday to do penance on Friday…that is what he is saying. He goes into this several times on his blog.

His argument is that one is not obliged in the US…and that such has been confirmed by Rome in the acceptance of the Document from the USCCB…

And he is not alone in this understanding… and one could infer from the USCCB site that they too understand it this way…which is why it says “urge” not “oblige”…

and in effect this is how most understand it here in the US …that such is not an obligation…

The point is not to argue over such…but to do penance as we are to do as Christians…to pray, give alms, fast etc…to live a Christian life…heck the Church gives us various seasons and days penance (even if only a few are “obligatory”) so that we do discipline ourselves in following Christ and do penance joyfully as his disciples…(and the Church for our good … gives us these special times)

To “urge” at times (and when appropriate) other Catholics to do some kind of penance on Friday…to prepare for Sunday etc

I will repeat my post from earlier:

Others such as those in Canon Law and Moral Theology…along with Jimmy note that in the US this is not an obligation …as per the Church

(personally I have been on both sides of this fence at one time or another…I can see aspects of the arguments on both sides…I could argue both sides…)

This will be of interest: usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

Anyhow…in any case…

Fridays outside of Lent and Good Friday still remain " days of Penance" (except when they are Solemnities)…even if in the US there is no obligation …

So let us do penance…let us choose to do something…prayer, almsgiving, fasting etc

we all need penance…and such is part of the Christian life…

as they USCCB site page notes…we are “urged” to prepare for Sunday each week …with penance on Friday… so lets live this exhortation…for it is good for us and is part of Christian life…

One could even add penance on Weds. The early Christians would fast on Wed.s and Fridays…usually from morning until the 9th hour (3pm) …(from everything! …man I would still need my coffee…but they did not know Coffee…hee hee)