Friday Abstinence Today?

[Sirach2]

Thank you Father David. This could be the reason I can no longer find the link to Jimmy Akin’s article. It was pulled from all the sources I searched.

I’ll read the link you posted.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Octaves, such as that of Christmas and Easter, technically extends the Feast Day into the entire week. I failed to mention when I said that today is not a fast day in the Ukrainian Church, we do not have a feast such as the Holy Family today, yet because of the octave of Christmas, the entire week has no fast. I just had some hotdogs this morning

I’m travelling right now and don’t have access to my library. I’d like to provide some better references, but at the moment I cannot.

It certainly has been the traditional practice of the Church that the entire Octave of Christmas is seen as a time of feasting, as opposed to fasting.

I see.

 

[Elizium23]

I don’t want to be a cloud in the sunny sky, but before Vatican II, we abstained on every Friday regardless of what day it was or what season it was. Santa Clause could be comming down the chimney, but if it was friday, you offered him fish.

Just a thought.

Just a thought from the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

§ 4. On Sundays and days of obligation the law ceases except on a feast of obligation during Lent; and the vigils are not anticipated; likewise the law ceases on Holy Saturday at noon.

Therefore, Christmas was never a day of abstinence under the old law, and if you were offering Santa fish on a Friday of Christmas, you were insulting him, go for some nice prime rib instead.

 

[Sirach2]

Fr. David:

In fact, that’s exactly what the bishops did envision. Friday remains a day of penance. There is nothing optional about keeping the Friday penance. The option now is how that penance is done–not whether-or-not it is observed.

I read the statement from the USCCB, and it is my belief, as Jimmy Akin tried to explain, that there is no binding under pain of sin if one neglects to perform an alternate penance or if the person chooses to eat meat. His words were: “Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”) Thus no obligation is created.”

That was the gist of EWTN’s statement, that we are bound to substitute a different penance if we eat meat on Friday.
Bishops' Statement:

1. Among the works of voluntary self-denial and personal penance which we especially commend to our people for the future observance of Friday, **even though we hereby terminate the traditional law of **abstinence binding under pain of sin, as the sole prescribed means of observing Friday, we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat.
   25.b. …] Our deliberate, personal abstinence from meat, more especially because
   no longer required by law, will be an outward sign of inward spiritual values that we cherish.
2. …] This said, we emphasize that our people are henceforth free from the obligation traditionally binding ****under pain of sin in what pertains to Friday abstinence, except as noted above for Lent.
   We stress this so that “no” scrupulosity will enter into examinations of conscience,
   confessions, or personal decisions on this point.
3. Perhaps we should warn those who decide to keep the Friday abstinence for reasons of personal piety and special love that they must not pass judgment on those who elect to substitute other penitential observances of Friday, please God,

Can you comment, Father, on the binding obligation to substitute an alternate penance? The keyword from point #24 in the statement is “voluntary.”

 

[TrueLight]

I read the statement from the USCCB, and it is my belief, as Jimmy Akin tried to explain, that there is no binding under pain of sin if one neglects to perform an alternate penance or if the person chooses to eat meat. His words were: “Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”) Thus no obligation is created.”

That was the gist of EWTN’s statement, that we are bound to substitute a different penance if we eat meat on Friday.

Can you comment, Father, on the binding obligation to substitute an alternate penance? The keyword from point #24 in the statement is “voluntary.”

Sirach, do you know which Bishop said this?

 

[Bookcat]

jimmyakin.org/.services/blog/6a00d8341bfbfe53ef00d834515cb369e2/search?filter.q=friday+penance

Jimmy Akin has a number of articles.

Of course one could discuss it-hence he includes it in his section “annual lent fight”… (I have been on both sides of the discussion over the years)

In any case Fridays outside of Solemnities and Holy Days remain “days of penance” even if in a particular country they are not “obligated” (except Lent and Good Friday of course) to do penance.

(as to today…I had heard over the years it said that being part of the Octave of Christmas it is in the sense of the “solemnity”…I leave it to others to verify or argue…of course in good Christmas spirit )

 

[YoungTradCath]

This Canon Law vs. Bishops, “There must/needn’t be a penance,” thing is really exploding my mind.

Non sequiturrr!

 

[MarkThompson]

For those who are wondering whether weekdays within the Octave of Christmas rank as solemnities, it should be clear that they do not from the Table of Liturgical days in the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and Calendar:

Table of Liturgical Days
I 1. Easter triduum of the Lord’s passion and resurrection.
2. Christmas, Epiphany, Ascension, and Pentecost.
Sundays of Advent, Lent, and the Easter season.
Ash Wednesday.
Weekdays of Holy Week from Monday to Thursday inclusive.
Days within the octave of Easter.
3. Solemnities of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and saints listed in the General Calendar.
All Souls.
4. Proper Solemnities, namely:

Solemnity of the principal patron of the place, that is, the city or state.
Solemnity of the dedication of a particular church and the anniversary.
Solemnity of the title, or of the founder, or of the principal patron of a religious order or congregation.

II 5. Feasts of the Lord in the General Calendar.
6. Sundays of the Christmas season and Sundays in Ordinary Time.
7. Feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the saints in the General Calendar.
8. Proper feasts, namely:

Feast of the principal patron of the diocese.
Feast of the anniversary of the dedication of the cathedral.
Feast of the principal patron of a region or province, or a country, or of a wider territory.
Feast of the title, founder, or principle patron of an order or congregation and of a religious province, without prejudice to the directives in no. 4.
Other feasts proper to an individual church.
Other feasts listed in the calendar of a diocese or of a religious order or congregation. 

9. 	Weekdays of Advent from 17 December to 24 December inclusive.

Days within the octave of Christmas.
Weekdays of Lent.

III 10. Obligatory memorials in the General Calendar.
11. Proper obligatory memorials, namely:

Memorial of a secondary patron of the place, diocese, region, or province, country or wider territory, or of an order or congregation and of a religious province.
Obligatory memorials listed in the calendar of a diocese, or of an order or congregation. 

12. 	Optional memorials; but these may be celebrated even on the days listed in no. 9, in the special manner described by the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and of the Liturgy of the Hours.

In the same manner obligatory memorials may be celebrated as optional memorials if they happen to fall on the Lenten weekdays.
13. Weekdays of Advent up to 16 December inclusive.
Weekdays of the Christmas season from 2 January until the Saturday after Epiphany.
Weekdays of the Easter season from Monday after the octave of Easter until the Saturday before Pentecost inclusive.
Weekdays in Ordinary Time.
Hence, these days rank below simple feasts.

 

[Sirach2]

Thanks for Akin’s link, Bookcat.

In any case Fridays outside of Solemnities and Holy Days remain “days of penance” even if in a particular country they are not “obligated” (except Lent and Good Friday of course)

There is no doubt in my mind that Friday remains a day of penance. That’s not my question. I need to know if the failure to do an alternate penance binds under pain of sin, and if so, what would be the degree? Mortal? Venial? Imperfection?
As I mentioned, the document states “voluntary.”

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach, do you know which Bishop said this?

The USCCB (all bishops) rather than a particular bishop.

 

[MarkThompson]

The wonderful thing about this is that it sounds juicy on paper, but works out awfully in real life.

I don’t have time today for a long spiel, but you might be interested to read this article (pp. 304ff.) from the 1907 American Ecclesiastical Review to get a little flavor of how the indult picture looked at the time – and also that the idea of asking people to substitute fasting or abstinence with some penance of their own choice is nothing new.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for Akin’s link, Bookcat.

There is no doubt in my mind that Friday remains a day of penance. That’s not my question. I need to know if the failure to do an alternate penance binds under pain of sin, and if so, what would be the degree? Mortal? Venial? Imperfection?
As I mentioned, the document states “voluntary.”

According to Jimmy Akin’s reading it is not binding (outside Lent and Good Friday) in the USA (other places it is). Of course one could debate the question.

Certainly it remains a penitential day as you note (unless it there is a Solemnity or Holy Day).

 

[Bookcat]

For those who are wondering whether weekdays within the Octave of Christmas rank as solemnities, it should be clear that they do not from the Table of Liturgical days in the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and Calendar:

Table of Liturgical Days
I 1. Easter triduum of the Lord’s passion and resurrection.
2. Christmas, Epiphany, Ascension, and Pentecost.
Sundays of Advent, Lent, and the Easter season.
Ash Wednesday.
Weekdays of Holy Week from Monday to Thursday inclusive.
Days within the octave of Easter.
3. Solemnities of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and saints listed in the General Calendar.
All Souls.
4. Proper Solemnities, namely:

Solemnity of the principal patron of the place, that is, the city or state.
Solemnity of the dedication of a particular church and the anniversary.
Solemnity of the title, or of the founder, or of the principal patron of a religious order or congregation.

II 5. Feasts of the Lord in the General Calendar.
6. Sundays of the Christmas season and Sundays in Ordinary Time.
7. Feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the saints in the General Calendar.
8. Proper feasts, namely:

Feast of the principal patron of the diocese.
Feast of the anniversary of the dedication of the cathedral.
Feast of the principal patron of a region or province, or a country, or of a wider territory.
Feast of the title, founder, or principle patron of an order or congregation and of a religious province, without prejudice to the directives in no. 4.
Other feasts proper to an individual church.
Other feasts listed in the calendar of a diocese or of a religious order or congregation. 

9. 	Weekdays of Advent from 17 December to 24 December inclusive.

Days within the octave of Christmas.
Weekdays of Lent.

III 10. Obligatory memorials in the General Calendar.
11. Proper obligatory memorials, namely:

Memorial of a secondary patron of the place, diocese, region, or province, country or wider territory, or of an order or congregation and of a religious province.
Obligatory memorials listed in the calendar of a diocese, or of an order or congregation. 

12. 	Optional memorials; but these may be celebrated even on the days listed in no. 9, in the special manner described by the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and of the Liturgy of the Hours.

In the same manner obligatory memorials may be celebrated as optional memorials if they happen to fall on the Lenten weekdays.
13. Weekdays of Advent up to 16 December inclusive.
Weekdays of the Christmas season from 2 January until the Saturday after Epiphany.
Weekdays of the Easter season from Monday after the octave of Easter until the Saturday before Pentecost inclusive.
Weekdays in Ordinary Time.
Hence, these days rank below simple feasts.

Well that puts it all in order

 

[Bookcat]

For those in the USA…one could simply undertake more prayer today if one likes…

 

[Sirach2]

For those in the USA…one could simply undertake more prayer today
if one likes…

IOW, it is voluntary, non-binding under pain of any kind of sin. This drove me nuts over the years, and every now and then, it still causes me to pull my hair out! :crying:.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I don’t have time today for a long spiel, but you might be interested to read this article (pp. 304ff.) from the 1907 American Ecclesiastical Review to get a little flavor of how the indult picture looked at the time – and also that the idea of asking people to substitute fasting or abstinence with some penance of their own choice is nothing new.

Fine but, we have certain people who say that no penance is required at all. I cannot understand how that can be logically concluded.

You want an indult or a different penance? Fine. Canon Law allows it. But I do not understand how someone can rationally come to the conclusion that, “Oh mhm, no penance is required because the bishops say so, even though Canon Law says otherwise.”

I cannot in good conscience (there’s the “c word”!) accept that.

 

[FrDavid96]

I read the statement from the USCCB, and it is my belief, as Jimmy Akin tried to explain, that there is no binding under pain of sin if one neglects to perform an alternate penance or if the person chooses to eat meat. His words were: “Again, the language of exhortation (“we urge”) is used rather than the language of mandate (“all must”) Thus no obligation is created.”

That was the gist of EWTN’s statement, that we are bound to substitute a different penance if we eat meat on Friday.

Can you comment, Father, on the binding obligation to substitute an alternate penance? The keyword from point #24 in the statement is “voluntary.”

Again, I will ask you to read what the bishops actually said, and not what someone’s web blog says the bishops said.
old.usccb.org/lent/2008/Penance_and_Abstinence.pdf

1. Friday itself remains a special day of penitential observance
   throughout the year, a time when those who seek perfection will be
   mindful of their personal sins and the sins of mankind which they are
   called upon to help expiate in union with Christ Crucified.

You will note that the blog does not mention paragraph 22. Why not?

Can you explain to me this logic:

given, “Friday itself remains a special day of penitential observance”
therefore Friday penance is optional

Say what?

I’ve looked at that blog many times before, and the complete lack of any logical argument is astounding.

The bishops said
24. Among the works of voluntary self-denial and personal penance
which we especially commend to our people for the future observance
of Friday, even though we hereby terminate the traditional law of
abstinence binding under pain of sin, as the sole prescribed means of
observing Friday…

The bishops did NOT say that they terminate the Friday penance–only that they terminate the law that says that abstaining from meat is the “sole prescribed means of observing Friday.”

Let’s take an example from everyday life, shall we?
This is like a store that accepts only cash. The only way to pay for the goods you take out of the store is to hand over cash. If that store later says “we now accept checks as an alternate form of payment” does that mean that paying for the goods is now optional? Of course not. It means that the buyer has a choice of cash or check–it certainly doesn’t mean that paying has become optional. That would be ridiculous. It’s equally ridiculous to say that because the bishops allow an alternate form of penance to be substituted for what was the sole prescribed form, that means that the entire obligation no longer exists.

The word “voluntary” in #24–the one you asked about–means that “substituting” is now voluntary. Catholics are free to choose another penance or they are free to choose to continue to abstain from meat. The word “voluntary” refers to choosing the form of penance. It does not mean penance is voluntary. After all, if the bishops had intended to make the entire penance voluntary, does it not seem strange that they did not just say as much in the document?

 

[Sirach2]

“Oh mhm, no penance is required because the bishops say so, even though Canon Law says otherwise.”

I cannot in good conscience (there’s the “c word”!) accept that.

Then don’t, YTC.

But until you know without a shadow of a doubt that the bishops have authority to regulate this, it is best not to advise anyone else … other than to say, it does’t fly with you.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Then don’t, YTC.

But until you know without a shadow of a doubt that the bishops have authority to regulate this, it is best not to advise anyone else … other than to say, it does’t fly with you.

I shall do so anyways. I feel it necessary and expedient. And, given the FrDavid’s fantastic enlightenment, I feel even more supported in the matter.

 

[Bookcat]

IOW, it is voluntary, non-binding under pain of any kind of sin. This drove me nuts over the years, and every now and then, it still causes me to pull my hair out! :crying:.

As I noted it is still a “day of penance” even if in a particular country any “obligation” has been removed. It is still remains a day special for penance. And we are to do penance as Christians. I just suggested above that “prayer” could be a well suited penance on this friday of the Octave (which another above has shone is not a solemnity…so is still a day of penance…) …such could involve more reading of Scripture prayerfully (lectio divina) …etc

As to the voluntary nature of the “fridays outside lent and Good Friday” in the USA I noted it can be a matter that various arguments could perhaps be made. Jimmy notes in one of his articles that the USA Canon Law Society does not seem to see it as an obligation here and I have seen such argued by another also in the past…

Also interestingly Jimmy notes (in terms of the Canon Law here (not other things necessarily…):

“Thus I don’t see how–however strong one’s desire may be to find an obligation in the law–one can responsibly conclude that on the matter of obligatory Friday penance the law is not at *least *doubtful, in which case the doubt of law canon kicks in and tells us that the faithful are not obliged.”