Friend at work, IVF

[FromTheAshes777]

So a friend of mine at work e-mailed me and several other people this morning that she is having a fundraiser to raise money for her to have IVF procedures done. She has been a personal friend of mine for a long time and she is married. Her and her husband have struggled with infertility for a number of years and have decided to take this route rather than adoption.

In the past she asked my thoughts on the subject and I told her that I thought adoption would be a better way to go, but did not elaborate or discuss my feelings about IVF.

My question is this…I know that I can’t help support the decision monetarily for someone to have IVF treatments.

If my friend questions me about this, is there a good way to respond? I’m not sure what I should say given that this is such a delicate issue. For now I’m simply not responding to the e-mail since it was just sort of a general announcement about her fundraiser. I hope to not discuss the issue at all with her if I can avoid it. If I do end up in that position though can someone give me some advice on what I should say? I know if she asks me I can’t just ignore her.

Thanks all.
~Josh

 

[Debora123]

So a friend of mine at work e-mailed me and several other people this morning that she is having a fundraiser to raise money for her to have IVF procedures done. She has been a personal friend of mine for a long time and she is married. Her and her husband have struggled with infertility for a number of years and have decided to take this route rather than adoption.

In the past she asked my thoughts on the subject and I told her that I thought adoption would be a better way to go, but did not elaborate or discuss my feelings about IVF.

My question is this…I know that I can’t help support the decision monetarily for someone to have IVF treatments.

If my friend questions me about this, is there a good way to respond? I’m not sure what I should say given that this is such a delicate issue. For now I’m simply not responding to the e-mail since it was just sort of a general announcement about her fundraiser. I hope to not discuss the issue at all with her if I can avoid it. If I do end up in that position though can someone give me some advice on what I should say? I know if she asks me I can’t just ignore her.

Thanks all.
~Josh

If she asks you, just casually tell her that it’s against your personal religious beliefs and leave it at that. Don’t make a huge deal out of it.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

If she asks you, just casually tell her that it’s against your personal religious beliefs and leave it at that. Don’t make a huge deal out of it.

hm, so maybe something along the lines of, “My religious beliefs teach something different on that subject, and those beliefs are important to me.”?

Just got blindsided by this and will most likely see her this afternoon…so just wanted to have something fresh in my mind.

 

[Rence]

If my friend questions me about this, is there a good way to respond? I’m not sure what I should say given that this is such a delicate issue. For now I’m simply not responding to the e-mail since it was just sort of a general announcement about her fundraiser. I hope to not discuss the issue at all with her if I can avoid it. If I do end up in that position though can someone give me some advice on what I should say? I know if she asks me I can’t just ignore her.
~Josh

If your friend questions you, you can simply answer her straight out of the Catechism an encyclical that covers IVF. I personally don’t find anything wrong with IVF at all whatsoever, but I acknowledge and follow the Church’s rules in this matter. When people ask me about IVF, I just tell them the rules of the Church on it. You can inform her about the rules of the Church without judgement As to the email, I wouldn’t respond to the email myself, I’d just let it go. I wouldn’t donate either…however, after the baby is born (or babies) I’d give a gift then. After all, children are children no matter where they come from and each is as much a miracle as the next.

Though… I recently found out via CAF that the Church actually doesn’t outright forbid IVF and finds it ‘less reprehensible’ when married couples use it than using a random donor.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

If your friend questions you, you can simply answer her straight out of the Catechism an encyclical that covers IVF. I personally don’t find anything wrong with IVF at all whatsoever, but I acknowledge and follow the Church’s rules in this matter. When people ask me about IVF, I just tell them the rules of the Church on it. You can inform her about the rules of the Church without judgement As to the email, I wouldn’t respond to the email myself, I’d just let it go. I wouldn’t donate either…however, after the baby is born (or babies) I’d give a gift then. After all, children are children no matter where they come from and each is as much a miracle as the next.

Though… I recently found out via CAF that the Church actually doesn’t outright forbid IVF and finds it ‘less reprehensible’ when married couples use it than using a random donor.

thank you, I’m thinking something similar. and really? can you provide a link? Thanks.

 

[Debora123]

hm, so maybe something along the lines of, “My religious beliefs teach something different on that subject, and those beliefs are important to me.”?

Just got blindsided by this and will most likely see her this afternoon…so just wanted to have something fresh in my mind.

Sure.

You don’t even have to say “those beliefs are important to me”… you can just tell her it’s against your religious beliefs and leave it at that. Just say something like “well, if you’re asking me personally for my moral opinion on this, then yeah, I guess I should tell you that it is against my religious beliefs.”

Lol, girl you’re acting live you’ve never been confronted by people who have different beliefs than you. I’ve been doing it since junior high. In today’s society, it’s hard to find people who DO agree with us on moral issues.

 

[Debora123]

Though… I recently found out via CAF that the Church actually doesn’t outright forbid IVF and finds it ‘less reprehensible’ when married couples use it than using a random donor.

Really??

So IVF is actually NOT officially considered an intrinsic evil??

 

[Rence]

Really??

So IVF is actually NOT officially considered an intrinsic evil??

Apparently? it was explained to me here on CAF (forgot who all said it) that the change in language made it less problematic if the donor was the husband.

I had discussed in a thread ways back that before I came across CAF that I was strongly considering IVF and felt very burdened by the rules of the Church but was resigned to follow them. And I was told that it wasn’t outright forbidden for married couples.

2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union . . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169

 

[Debora123]

If your friend questions you, you can simply answer her straight out of the Catechism an encyclical that covers IVF. I personally don’t find anything wrong with IVF at all whatsoever, but I acknowledge and follow the Church’s rules in this matter. When people ask me about IVF, I just tell them the rules of the Church on it. You can inform her about the rules of the Church without judgement

I would really only reference the Catechism if she pressed the issue further and wanted to know WHY my religion was against it. Otherwise it might just sound too preachy if you start reciting the Catechism upon her just asking you something like “well, whatdya think?”

 

[Debora123]

Apparently? it was explained to me here on CAF (forgot who all said it) that the change in language made it less problematic if the donor was the husband.

Strange.

Whatever, I know a very nice family of 7 kids at my Church. All of them came through IVF, and the couple even wrote a book explaining why they don’t think IVF is wrong.

I personally don’t really care, as it’s something I’ll probably never have to deal with personally.

 

[Rence]

I would really only reference the Catechism if she pressed the issue further and wanted to know WHY my religion was against it. Otherwise it might just sound too preachy if you start reciting the Catechism upon her just asking you something like “well, whatdya think?”

Well, again, I don’t find a problem with IVF at all whatsoever, so asking me what I think will only lead me to say: I don’t have a problem with it at all whatsoever, contratulations, and I hope it works for you. So I just say, “weeeellll, I"m Catholic and the Church says this about it”. Keeping it simple will avoid me leading them ahem…astray…and there is no passing of judgement. Just a simple fact: this is what the Church says.

If they’re not Catholic though, it’s kind of a moot point…

 

[Debora123]

Well, again, I don’t find a problem with IVF at all whatsoever, so asking me what I think will only lead me to say: I don’t have a problem with it at all whatsoever, contratulations, and I hope it works for you. So I just say, “weeeellll, I"m Catholic and the Church says this about it”. Keeping it simple will avoid me leading them ahem…astray…and there is no passing of judgement. Just a simple fact: this is what the Church says.

If they’re not Catholic though, it’s kind of a moot point…

True, true.

 

[Rainaldo]

I’m speechless. She wants her coworkers to help pay for her to get pregnant?

Well you can put it this way. If she asks, just tell her that you can’t support what she’s doing because it’s against your religion. But you wish her all the best.

 

[KCT]

It depends on how in depth you want to get!

If she asks point blank if you’ll contribute, you can reply, “I can’t offer money right now, but I will pray for your family.” You don’t owe her an explanation.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Sure.

You don’t even have to say “those beliefs are important to me”… you can just tell her it’s against your religious beliefs and leave it at that. Just say something like “well, if you’re asking me personally for my moral opinion on this, then yeah, I guess I should tell you that it is against my religious beliefs.”

Lol, girl you’re acting live you’ve never been confronted by people who have different beliefs than you. I’ve been doing it since junior high. In today’s society, it’s hard to find people who DO agree with us on moral issues.

I’m a guy actually lol, but I understand the mistake. I should clarify I am also friends with her husband, although he doesn’t work with me. They are a great Christian couple and they have been through a lot trying to have a baby. I feel for them and have expressed to them many a time that I keep them in my prayers.

Believe me I’ve been challenged on my beliefs many a time, but I am not always the best at explaining things charitably to someone who strongly disagrees. I value the friendship of this couple, so I just want to be sure that I don’t stumble all over myself if she asks me about it given that she sent me an e-mail wanting me to buy things to support the IVF treatments this morning. Thanks again for the advice/perspective though, I really do appreciate it.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

I’m speechless. She wants her coworkers to help pay for her to get pregnant?

Well you can put it this way. If she asks, just tell her that you can’t support what she’s doing because it’s against your religion. But you wish her all the best.

well, she’s planning a bake sale, but yes it’s to raise money to pay for IVF.

 

[KCT]

I’m speechless. She wants her coworkers to help pay for her to get pregnant?

I was thinking the same thing!

People have fundraisers to help pay for injuries and expensive cancer treatments. They might also have fundraisers to help a couple adopt internationally because costs are so high. Perhaps the couple in question sees IVF in the same light…

 

[Allegra]

I see a major moral hurdle regarding IVF. IVF isn’t the same as the turkey baster method. (Which is still not Church approved, but might be what Rence is thinking of?) IVF requires doctors to remove eggs from the woman’s ovaries, fertilize them outside of the woman’s body, reinsert them into the uterus, and pump her full of hormones to mimic the natureal flow of progesterone that comes right before a woman ovulates. The obvious issue at stake is what happens to the concieved human babies that are not used during the procedure? Generally, they are preserved so they can be used if the first batch fails. If the woman becomes pregnant, these babies are preserved indefinatly or destroyed. They don’t have a chance to implant if they aren’t in the uterus, so effectively, they are created and then killed. It’s possible that one might get around this by injecting all of the embreos, but that can result in a life threatening multiple octomom scenario.

 

[AdamP88]

I see a major moral hurdle regarding IVF. IVF isn’t the same as the turkey baster method. (Which is still not Church approved, but might be what Rence is thinking of?) IVF requires doctors to remove eggs from the woman’s ovaries, fertilize them outside of the woman’s body, reinsert them into the uterus, and pump her full of hormones to mimic the natureal flow of progesterone that comes right before a woman ovulates. The obvious issue at stake is what happens to the concieved human babies that are not used during the procedure? Generally, they are preserved so they can be used if the first batch fails. If the woman becomes pregnant, these babies are preserved indefinatly or destroyed. They don’t have a chance to implant if they aren’t in the uterus, so effectively, they are created and then killed. It’s possible that one might get around this by injecting all of the embreos, but that can result in a life threatening multiple octomom scenario.

This is true. This is one of the main reasons the church teaches that IVF is immoral.

 

[Allegra]

This is true. This is one of the main reasons the church teaches that IVF is immoral.

I actually did explain this to a coworker of mine who was planning on IVF. She decided to go with the turkey baster thing. Apparently it is a much cheaper option as well.

It disturbed me a little that she didn’t even know what IVF was and yet she was gung ho to have it done. She didn’t believe me that her embryos would die because she thought she has asked her doctor about this. Then she called the doctor and clarifies that this was exactly what he was planning to do. He did give her an option of donating the unused embryos to a “family in need”. (I’m assuming a homosexual male?) She elected to just buy a tube-o-sperm and be done with it. Even that was over a thousand dollars and she ended up having to buy a second one before she got her baby.