Friend Became a Mormon

[LivingWaters7]

But what I slowly came to realize was that many of the things touted by the LDS Church as unique or attractions, are found in Catholicism in some fashion. Inspiration, revelation, guidance through the Holy Spirit is there and never ended. There have been prophets and prophetesses throughout Catholic history. Catholic churches, cathedrals, basilicas, etc are in direct continuity with the Biblical temple worship, to a much higher degree than the LDS temples (Margaret Barker, a Methodist theologian, has written extensively on Catholic/Orthodox worship and the temple context. LDS apologists seem to love her writings, which is how I found out about them, but instead, they convinced me more of the Catholic continuity!). Apostolic authority, directly from the original Apostles, is there, and has continued, unbroken. Which brings me to the main point: Jesus Christ established his Church anciently, as we read in the New Testament. Did it fail, or did it continue, guided by Christ Himself at the Head of His Church, with the Spirit guiding it into all Truth, protecting the Body of Christ? If it did continue, then there simply is no need for Mormonism (or Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, or any of the other Restorationist churches that have been created throughout the ages).

So, I do hope that as you go about your faith journey, you do as much reading as you can, on both sides, so that you are informed and know the background to either continue in the LDS faith, return to Catholicism, or any of a number of other options. Naturally as a Catholic revert, I’d love for you to also come back to Catholicism. The LDS would love for you to remain LDS. The LDS will say they aren’t convinced nor shaken by the posts here (perhaps to “poison the well” and dismiss out of hand anything said here before you even begin to participate). Catholic posters on LDS forums may say the same. It’s up to you, and I hope you continue to read and pray. The community is nice, and may be what you need, but that can be found elsewhere. I also hope you are seeking the guidance of a mental health professional, guidance for your health that should never be replaced by religion.

Oh and PS: you’re right, as a Latter-day Saint, you are no longer supposed to ask Mary, or any of the other saints of God in Heaven for prayers. You are also no longer supposed to pray directly to God the Son (Jesus Christ), nor God the Holy Spirit. You are only supposed to pray to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ.

PPS: check out these posts on my blog:

New York Times Article-LDS Area Authority Seventy Expresses Doubts

Is The Prophet a Prophet?-Two Interesting Articles


Changing the Ordinance?-The Fallacy of the LDS Argument Against the Mode of Baptism

The Heavens Are Closed? LDS Misunderstanding of Orthodox Views on Revelation


Holy Envy? Things I Appreciate About Mormonism

 

[LivingWaters7]

Saw this quote posted on another forum, and it reminded me of my struggle with entertaining the possibility that God the Father wasn’t eternally God, but was once a man that progressed to Godhood. It’s from the book “Gospel Through the Ages” by Milton Hunter. He says in chapter 17:

---

“Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God—an exalted being—through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey.”***

 

[SteveVH]

Hi BlessedLDS,

Since it seems as if we’re sharing threads, perhaps you might also be interested in reading some things in the following threads:

Thanks for this, LW. What a great post. It isn’t often that I am happy that a post continues to another. Very well said.

 

[TexanKnight]

BlessedLDS, This is an amazing story. I can’t imagine how hard it was to be baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Just to let you know, I have been on this site for probably two years. I don’t comment much because it seems the discussion usually leads to contention. None of the arguments have shaken my faith in the least, in fact, they have only led me to understand better the way to God. I wish you the best in your spiritual walk.

Translation: “I ignore the facts, the mountain of evidence against the LDS Church, I ignore the questions (and there are many) I can’t answer. I ignore the many, many versions of the First Vision, I ignore the fact he broke the law many times, I ignore the fact the LDS leaders refuse to excavate Cumorah, I ignore the constant changing in doctrine and teachings and as we find that what has been taught in the past is false, I ignore js and his adultery and wife swapping, I ignore the fact that is has been proven the book of Mormon is false. Because, if I ignore these things, I can say I am still faithful. And it is not the contention that gets me, it is the fact I cannot intelligently answer what is brought up against me.”

 

[Janderich]

Translation: “I ignore the facts, the mountain of evidence against the LDS Church, I ignore the questions (and there are many) I can’t answer. I ignore the many, many versions of the First Vision, I ignore the fact he broke the law many times, I ignore the fact the LDS leaders refuse to excavate Cumorah, I ignore the constant changing in doctrine and teachings and as we find that what has been taught in the past is false, I ignore js and his adultery and wife swapping, I ignore the fact that is has been proven the book of Mormon is false. Because, if I ignore these things, I can say I am still faithful. And it is not the contention that gets me, it is the fact I cannot intelligently answer what is brought up against me.”

TexanKnight, you know I have given many answers. But you do not want answers. You ask questions, but not to understand. The way is before you, but you have stopped following.

To ultimately know a person must investigate the matter himself. In science one performs experiments. In geography a person visit a location. Religion is similar. Jesus, speaking of gospel doctrine says, “If any man will do his will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17). Here then is the test: exercise enough faith to follow what the spirit whispers is true. If one follows, actually wanting to know the truth, one will receive it in their mind and heart. This person will then know independent of others words.

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it - he will be blessed in what he does (James 1:22-25 NIV)

The word of the Lord is light and truth to the person who follows it. Some refuse to read the BofM, well they will not know if it is true. Some forget what they have heard and stop following the word, well they are left to themselves. But anyone who follows, in humility and with real intent, can know if it is from God and all the clamor and all the noise does not change the fact.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight, you know I have given many answers. But you do not want answers. You ask questions, but not to understand. The way is before you, but you have stopped following.

That is a cop out. You have NEVER answered questions. You dodge and avoid. Not your fault. There are no answers for the honest mormons and bad answers for the rest.

To ultimately know a person must investigate the matter himself.

Yes…but HONEST investigation is required. Most lds do not do that

In science one performs experiments. In geography a person visit a location.

Good point. Where is Zerehamla? We can go together. Or, lets go excavate Cumorah, the hill in NY that many lds "prophets, including js, said was THE cumorah, but now the lds Church has backed off of knowing there is no evidence of what the b of m describes.

Religion is similar. Jesus, speaking of gospel doctrine says, “If any man will do his will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17).

He also said beware of false prophets. YOu shoulda listened

Here then is the test: exercise enough faith to follow what the spirit whispers is true. If one follows, actually wanting to know the truth, one will receive it in their mind and heart. This person will then know independent of others words.

Not a true test. People can feel good after eating a fine meal. Each church claims people who feel as you described. So all churches are true? No. It must be prayerful AND be based on reason. the lds “church” fails on the latter because it has no basis in fact.

The word of the Lord is light and truth to the person who follows it.

Then explain why so many factions of the lds church exist all claiming they are the true one?

Some refuse to read the BofM, well they will not know if it is true. Some forget what they have heard and stop following the word, well they are left to themselves. But anyone who follows, in humility and with real intent, can know if it is from God and all the clamor and all the noise does not change the fact.

And some realize the falseness of js and his many versions of the first vision, his egomania, his adultery, his illegal conduct and, etc etc etc and leave.

 

[Stephen168]

To ultimately know a person must investigate the matter himself. In science one performs experiments. In geography a person visit a location. Religion is similar.

God is rational, so religion, science and geography should not conflict as they do in Mormonism. It is when these conflicts are pointed out, that you (the general Mormon you) stop answering questions.

 

[Arandur]

Here then is the test: exercise enough faith to follow what the spirit whispers is true. If one follows, actually wanting to know the truth, one will receive it in their mind and heart. This person will then know independent of others words.

Janderich, take the same test for Catholicism. But there’s a lot more to Catholicism, many objective standards of truth (objective = outside yourself, beyond your own subjective interpretation, i.e., your capacity to fool yourself).

You see, anyone of any belief system can take your entirely subjective exercise use it to justify their own position, saying that they have done just this and acquired such an assurance of the truth of their own position. They can’t all be right.

But the Catholic position is confirmed by much, much more than subjective assessment of whether you think you’re being led by the spirit of truth.

The Catholic position is confirmed by:
History–and God is the author of history (Salvation History, as we call it). This is reflected in the continuity of practice and belief of the faithful from Old Testament times through the New Testament and Early Church to today. Look into the beliefs and practices of the very first Christians and you will find them quite Catholic–and much more Catholic than they resemble any other modern sect. I would also say that the position of the various BoM-believing religions is even farther from the Early Church, with many more beliefs and practices just simply not found there, than most other denominations today.

Logic–and God, particularly Jesus (whom the Greek NT calls the Word, or Logos, the embodiment of Reason) created human reason as an instrument to discover and know Truth (Himself). I speak not here of mere persuasive arguments. Logic itself most fundamentally works on the Law of Noncontradiction. There are some things that we can know about God and about His Church that are really not arguable. Many non-Catholic churches, particularly the LDS, are fundamentally and glaringly self-contradictory. Apostasy theory itself, the requisite precondition for any “restoration,” is enormously self-contradictory in many, many ways and requires attributing many properties to God that are, frankly, blasphemous insults.

Signs–I realize that this gets into some shaky ground, because many religions will claim signs and wonders, but Catholicism has some unique ones. I speak not just of miracles (of which the Catholic Church has documented far more–and exposed to the greatest and deepest scrutiny far more–than any other religion, and this despite the fact that JS and many other restorationists claim the need for restoration was because miracles had stopped!). I speak of signs such as the Unity of the Church, and its consistency in teaching throughout time. It is, after all, the oldest existing human organization to maintain continuity in essential teaching and structure in the world–by far. The works of man and Satan crumble or must dramatically change–as have all other nations and religions. The Divine Institution, the Church, stands alone in this regard, a proof of the constancy of God.

Nature–What we can know from nature, natural law itself, aligns with Catholic teaching and little else. Those unacquainted with studying natural revelation (how God has revealed Himself through nature, a wonderful, timeless, objective source of information about God) will have a hard time understanding what I’m talking about. But just treat nature, including human nature and anthropology, as God’s revelation through Creation, and study it as such, and you will discover much about God–and it will align with the Catholic Church’s teachings more than any others (and those others only insofar as they agree with the Catholic Church). After all Paul did say that the Gentiles were not blameless, for they had knowledge of God through Creation. It seems few other than Catholics even acknowledge this aspect of Revelation.

There are other objective sources of truth and objective measures by which you can test something, so as to not have to rely on your own feelings and subjective assessment. These are just a few big ones.

I suggest people be honest seekers and look at these objective things outside themselves, so as not to fall to self-deception (or deception by other powers).

 

[LivingWaters7]

Unfortunately, many have sincerely read the Book of Mormon, with humility, sincerity, and real intent, and did not receive knowledge from God that it is true. I personally prayed hard to know whether it was true, including when I met with the missionaries. When I first met with them, I was already well into it, and they said that usually they give the investigator specific verses to read, but I should just keep reading. Even after fervent prayer, for years, I never received that witness that it is true (I didn’t convert over the Book of Mormon). This can create psychological issues, where the inquirer begins to wonder whether they are “really” sincere, “really” humble, etc, and whether something is “wrong” with them because they didn’t receive the answer they were told they would receive if they followed the formula.

Muslims also have a similar practice related to reading the Qur’an. Many believe that after reading and praying about it (and praying it), they came to realize that Muhammad really was a true Prophet, that an angel of God really did visit him, and that the Qur’an really is the word of God. Who’s right?

Many Catholics and those considering conversion to the Catholic Church have prayed to know whether they should join the Church. Many Catholics have had profound spiritual experiences while worshipping before the Real Presence of Christ, confirming to them the reality of that belief. Who’s right?

The point Janderich is that everything said in your post could apply to any of the other religions in the world, and is not something unique to Latter-day Saints, nor something that only they experience (indeed, it’s something that people have been teaching and proclaiming for thousands of years prior to the establishment of the LDS Church). Does that discount the experiences that many LDS claim they have had? Of course not. But the LDS claim does not discount the experiences non-LDS have had, nor does it make the LDS stance unique.

One should exercise faith, and one should also exercise their God-given reason. For me, by exercising faith and reason, I came back to the Catholic Church, following the whisperings of the Spirit that was speaking to me all the years I was LDS. I just had to listen. I also believe that it is that same Spirit that has protected Christ’s Church since Christ Himself established it, guiding it in to all Truth, never allowing the Kingdom of God, established by God, to fail due to the weakness of man. It is protected by the strength and mercy of God, and neither a restoration nor a reformation was ever necessary, despite all the wonderful things that may be found in the myriad of restoration and reformation churches throughout Christian history, the LDS Church being merely one of them.

MormonThink-Mormon Testimony and Spiritual Witnesses

 

[iepuras]

To ultimately know a person must investigate the matter himself. In science one performs experiments. In geography a person visit a location. Religion is similar. Jesus, speaking of gospel doctrine says, “If any man will do his will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17). Here then is the test: exercise enough faith to follow what the spirit whispers is true. If one follows, actually wanting to know the truth, one will receive it in their mind and heart. This person will then know independent of others words.

Let’s investigate the matter ourselves. The truthfulness of Mormonism hinges entirely on the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith. It does not rely on Jesus Christ or the Apostles. Either Joseph Smith was telling the truth or he was telling a lie. Let’s look at the evidence of his trustworthiness.

1. Joseph Smith took money in exchange for looking into a peep, or seer, stone to find treasure. He never found any treasure for the people who hired him for his skills.
2. He illegally started a bank (Kirtland Safety Society) which ended up failing and bankrupting many members of his church. Joseph Smith fled Kirtland for Missouri to avoid trial.
3. He told his followers that God commanded them to build a nice house and boarding house for Joseph Smith and his family.
4. Joseph illegally married over 30 women. Bigamy was and is illegal. Many of his plural wives were young servant girls who stayed in his home to help his first wife, Emma. Joseph married most of these girls without Emma’s knowledge or consent.
5. Joseph exchanged eternal salvation for the entire family of Heber C. Kimball in order to marry Kimball’s 14 year old daughter, Helen Mar. Joseph was over twice Helen’s age.
6. Joseph Smith “married” 11 women who were already to married to other men, who were faithful followers.
7. When some of Joseph’s former followers were about to print a newspaper outlining Joseph Smith’s polygamy/adultery, he incited a riot that destroyed the printing press, which was private property.
8. When Joseph was arrested for inciting said riot, he had someone smuggle a pistol to him in prison.
9. When a mob attacked the jail, Joseph shot and killed two men before being shot himself and jumping out the window to his death.

Let’s look at Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God born before all ages and was, by the Holy Spirit, incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. He dwelt among us and obeyed the will of God the Father in all things. He healed the sick, forgave sins, and taught his disciples to love. When it came time for his death, he did not fight back. He allowed himself to be executed. He gave himself as sacrifce for sin to save us all. He was resurrected on the third day.

Let’s even look at the apostles to see if they can be trusted and believed. They were not perfect and we certainly know of many of Peter’s faults. The apostles gave up their earthly possessions to follow Jesus and to take His message to the world. None of them enriched themselves off the early Christians. They all suffered persecutions and prison. Except for John, they were all martyred. They also didn’t take any Romans down with them. They are wonderful examples of how ordinary people can become extraordinary through the grace of God.

 

[Stephen168]

Some refuse to read the BofM, well they will not know if it is true.

I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document.
I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a work of American fiction.

DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon.

In what way do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?

 

[iepuras]

I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document.
I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a work of American fiction.

DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon.

In what way do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?

I believe the Book of Mormon contains many biblical truths because much of the Book of Mormon is plagiarized from the Bible. Some of the stories are essentially copied from the Bible with some name changes. Saul of Tarsus = Alma the Younger

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Some refuse to read the BofM, well they will not know if it is true.

I’ve read it, well not read it but heard the whole thing on audio, and I do love the stories.
NEVERTHELESS, it doesn’t make it true. Joseph Smith pulled from everything around
him going on in the 19th century, Republicanism , faulty King James Version , View of
the Hebrews (book),revival movements of the time,HIS OWN LIFE, and so much more!

Go to hotm.tv/episodes/ and learn everything you can on how the Book of Mormon is a fraud.

 

[Tarquin]

Remember also when you are at the Mormon services or watching Mormon videos, they will use the same words and phrases that you are quite familiar with . . . but MEAN something VERY DIFFERENT. For example, the phrase “Eternal Father” to a Mormon means something very different than what it means to a Catholic (hint: He is not really “eternal” in Mormonism).

That’s my strongest objection, Cathoholic. Mormonism is in a sense an atheistic religion. If I said that the planets were being populated by super-advanced aliens determined to spread life in the universe, that would be interesting from a sociological perspective, but it would not be theology. The core problem with Mormon teachings when it comes to True God is that Mormonism does not recognize a Creator. I mean an original Creator, The One and Only who Began Everything. Mormonism teaches that God was once a man, who was so very good that he was allowed (by his God, his Heavenly Father) to join the ranks of the Gods over a personal, finite domain of his own. So there is God and God’s God. What or Who started this cycle or evolution of successive gods? More importantly, since these God’s were once mortals with powers no greater than ours here on this forum, and since there was (presumably) a time when they were not even conscious, when they had no self-awareness, and therefore could not maintain themselves let alone a solar system; therefore What or Who is maintaining this process of godly successions of generations of gods? That to me would seem to be the True God. But no Mormon seems to know Who That is.

BlessedLDS, do you know who the Creator is? Or the Father of your current God?

 

[eddie_too]

who is this Jesus that the mormons preach?

why do they follow this Jesus if His first attempt to establish a church for His followers was an abject failure?

if the lds is a restoration of the original Church founded by Jesus, why will it also not fail as the lds claimed the Church started by Jesus failed?

i know that lds leaders will provide answers to these questions.

for example, one told me that the Church Jesus started did not fail even though it left billions of His followers stranded in an apostate church. afterall, the lds leader told me, the lds is proof that the church started by Jesus did not fail because it is here now.

some may find such a response reasonable. i found it to have missed the entire point which was the billions of people who were led astray thorough Jesus’ inability to create a system that would preserve His teachings for all time, at least according to mormon teaching they were led astray.

in my belief, my Jesus is so much greater than the failed Jesus preached by the mormons.

one question that the mormon leaders did not answer is when i asked how they knew that the angel moroni who brought the book of mormon to joseph smith came from a benevolent being? after all, the primary effect of moroni’s visit was to reduce the number of people worshipping Christ in the traditional christian sects.

regardless, i believe that people, be they mormon or anything else, who pray to received the truth will eventually be given it. perseverance is the key.

 

[superwimp]

. Though after reading it, praying about it, and noticing how much of a better person I had become, I came to the conclusion Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is what it says it is.

When I joined it was purely emotional. It was a Paschal Wager. But now I’ve do have a “testimony” of many of the Church’s beliefs (though don’t tell President Monson, I still pray to the Blessed Mother).

Hello blessed LDS,

The LDS, while the largest, is just one of many sects which originated from the 1830 church.  It's like saying Jesus was the messiah therefore I'm Pentecostal.

PS. If your going to listen to general conference this weekend You might listen carefully to Monson’s testimony. Does his testimony include any of the beliefs unique to Mormonism.

1. I believe JS was a prophet
2. I believe the book of Mormon is historically true
   scribd.com/doc/159313089/Monson-s-Refusal-to-Testify

 

[Janderich]

I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document.
I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a work of American fiction.

DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon.

In what way do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?

I believe the actual words in the Book of Mormon. That it is an “abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi”. That they saw Christ after his resurrection. It is a further witness that Jesus Christ manifests himself unto all nations.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I believe the actual words in the Book of Mormon. That it is an “abridgment of the record of
the people of Nephi”. That they saw Christ after his resurrection. It is a further witness that
Jesus Christ manifests himself unto all nations.

Okay, now where’s the proof?
No genetic, linguistic, or archeological evidence.
The Bible calls Jesus Son of the Father, Book of
Mormon calls Jesus the Son AND the Father …
No coins, swords, or chariots. No Semetic DNA,
no Temple “Like unto Solomon’s” , or any exam-
ples of Ancient Americans writing records upon
plates of metal …

The Book of Mormon has nothing.

 

[Janderich]

Unfortunately, many have sincerely read the Book of Mormon, with humility, sincerity, and real intent, and did not receive knowledge from God that it is true. I personally prayed hard to know whether it was true, including when I met with the missionaries. When I first met with them, I was already well into it, and they said that usually they give the investigator specific verses to read, but I should just keep reading. Even after fervent prayer, for years, I never received that witness that it is true (I didn’t convert over the Book of Mormon). This can create psychological issues, where the inquirer begins to wonder whether they are “really” sincere, “really” humble, etc, and whether something is “wrong” with them because they didn’t receive the answer they were told they would receive if they followed the formula.
…

Living Waters, I’m sorry you never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon. It is not so impossible as you make it out to be.

All religion has some truth and some falsehood. The key is to know how to search in the light of Christ to find the truth. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth. Joseph Smith said, “The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence.” (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith 149-150). The Holy Ghost gives intelligence. Because of the understanding he gives we have certain feelings. But the Holy Ghost is not simply a nice feeling like I might have when buying some new clothes.
It is a still small voice but it is not insignificant.

There is much truth in the world and much falsehood. I may pray to know if Jesus is the Christ and the Spirit will testify that it is so, but this will not tell me which church to join. That is why one must pray about specifics like the Book of Mormon. There are only a few churches which believe in the book. Once this truth is know then one can pray about other specific things and the Spirit will confirm it.

 

[Janderich]

Okay, now where’s the proof?
No genetic, linguistic, or archeological evidence.
The Bible calls Jesus Son of the Father, Book of
Mormon calls Jesus the Son AND the Father …
No coins, swords, or chariots. No Semetic DNA,
no Temple “Like unto Solomon’s” , or any exam-
ples of Ancient Americans writing records upon
plates of metal …

The Book of Mormon has nothing.

Why do I always get this request of proof from people of faith? Where is the proof that Moses parted the Red Sea? Where is the proof that Elijah was carried into Heaven? Where is the proof of the resurrection, the most important event in the history of the world? Do you believe that these events occurred? Why? It seems you are not consistent for you take some things on faith and yet demand proof of others. Search your heart, how do you know these miracles occured?