Friend believes philosophy is stupid

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I think I see where intellectualism, which philosophy is a part, is greatly inferior to a spirituality influenced by the Holy Spirit. I was a staunch Atheist too, who liked to kick and mock the Church, but something totally unexpected happened to me that changed my life forever. I pray that history repeats itself with your friend.

Readers, go for the gold by creating a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit; intellectualism, I’m afraid, will only impede things.

LOVE! 🙂
 
I think I see where intellectualism, which philosophy is a part, is greatly inferior to a spirituality influenced by the Holy Spirit. I was a staunch Atheist too, who liked to kick and mock the Church, but something totally unexpected happened to me that changed my life forever. I pray that history repeats itself with your friend.

Readers, go for the gold by creating a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit; intellectualism, I’m afraid, will only impede things.

LOVE! 🙂
First of all, I give God the praise for your conversion.

But I find your statement somewhat disturbing. We all know grace infinitely exceeds nature. However in classic Catholic theology grace builds on nature. Aquinas, Vatican I, Vatican II, manuals of theology all stress the role of apologetics and reason in preparing the way for–not impeding–the working of grace.

Exposing errors and bad faith, clearing up concerns, showing coherence with commonly accepted human values can themselves be instruments of grace in that person’s life. It can also clear the air so the faithful are not deceived.
 
First of all, I give God the praise for your conversion.
Same here, God gets all the credit, especially the Holy Spirit.
But I find your statement somewhat disturbing. We all know grace infinitely exceeds nature. However in classic Catholic theology grace builds on nature. Aquinas, Vatican I, Vatican II, manuals of theology all stress the role of apologetics and reason in preparing the way for–not impeding–the working of grace.
So sorry for negative feelings. Heavenly contemplation is the golden key that trumps intellectualism. Again, not meant to offend in the least, but trying to provide my experiences with each. What specifically did I say that led to to say ‘grace builds on nature?’
Exposing errors and bad faith, clearing up concerns, showing coherence with commonly accepted human values can themselves be instruments of grace in that person’s life. It can also clear the air so the faithful are not deceived.
Absolutely, but always try and reach for the better portion.
 
“But the implications of enthusiasm [religious extremism] go deeper than this; at the root of it lies a different theology of grace. Our traditional doctrine is that grace perfects nature, elevates it to higher pitch, so that it can bear its part in the music of eternity, but leaves it nature still. The assumption of the enthusiast is bolder and simpler; for him, grace has destroyed nature and replaced it.”
[Ronald A. Knox, *Enthusiasm: A Chapter in the History of Religion, 1950, Chapter 1]

“The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically [philosophically] known and demonstrated.”
[St. Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theologiae, I, 2, 2, ad 1]
So sorry for negative feelings. Heavenly contemplation is the golden key that trumps intellectualism. Again, not meant to offend in the least, but trying to provide my experiences with each. What specifically did I say that led to to say ‘grace builds on nature?’
Well, it’s the context and the loaded term.

The forum is devoted to the “Discussion of philosophy, with an emphasis on Catholic contributions” in a Church which in every document I can think of praises philosophy as the passionate pursuit of the highest and most fundamental truths accessible to the natural light of reason. She never once calls it “intellectualism.” To enter the forum and essentially say that philosophy stands in the way of conversion and call it “intellectualism” rather than speak about it as the church does as the quest for truth is like someone entering a conversation about the power and beauty of human sexual intimacy and at every turn speaking about the vile sins of the flesh. It makes you wonder where the comments are coming from.

Given that philosophy isn’t just intellectualism, at least for those with a knack for it, but instead, as Thomas reminds us in the Summa, a natural passionate quest and part of natural human foundation that grace builds upon, I thought a reminder of the maxim that grace builds on nature was in order.

We all know, as St. Gregory Palamas says, that philosophy cannot save. And as Aquinas reminds us, revealed theology is of a higher order than philosophical theology.

But philosophy as the passionate pursuit of wisdom (not intellectualism), is not in a contest with theology or the spiritual life. When one is theologizing one uses the results of philosophy. And when a Catholic is philosophizing according to the rigor of its own natural method they do so as a man or woman of faith. Perhaps a good reading of JPII, Fides et Ratio would help. Not everyone is called to be a professional theologian; some are called as devout Catholics to philosophy. One does not trump the other.
Absolutely, but always try and reach for the better portion.
It’s not either-or. What would make a Catholic even think that?

If I were a Carmelite friar or a Carthusian monk I would have to watch that the philosophical search did not interfere with the stages of contemplative prayer that I was being drawn through into transforming union, if God so willed it.

As that is not the case I live by the Dominican maxim exemplified by Thomas even in his numerous philosophical endeavors, contemplata aliis tradere.
 
A further reason for my reaction to your pitting philosophy (viewed as intellectualism) against revealed truth (“heavenly contemplation”; “the golden key that trumps intellectualism”; “the better portion” than the Martha of philosophy apparently) occurred to me. Your use of the loaded term “intellectualism” in this context rather than the Church’s characterization carries with it the connotation of intellectualization.

Intellectualization is a psychological defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress where thinking is used to avoid feeling.

Perhaps in your days as an atheist that is indeed how and why you used your reason. But it is necessary to remember that from its earliest days in Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle through Cicero to Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas philosophy while faithful to its own method existed in a theocentric context and included a natural theology. Philosophy was a part of the theocentric humanism that characterized the cultural and intellectual life of the West and constitutes part of the nature presupposed by grace.
 
Well, it’s the context and the loaded term.

The forum is devoted to the “Discussion of philosophy, with an emphasis on Catholic contributions” in a Church which in every document I can think of praises philosophy as the passionate pursuit of the highest and most fundamental truths accessible to the natural light of reason. She never once calls it “intellectualism.” To enter the forum and essentially say that philosophy stands in the way of conversion and call it “intellectualism” rather than speak about it as the church does as the quest for truth is like someone entering a conversation about the power and beauty of human sexual intimacy and at every turn speaking about the vile sins of the flesh. It makes you wonder where the comments are coming from.

Given that philosophy isn’t just intellectualism, at least for those with a knack for it, but instead, as Thomas reminds us in the Summa, a natural passionate quest and part of natural human foundation that grace builds upon, I thought a reminder of the maxim that grace builds on nature was in order.

We all know, as St. Gregory Palamas says, that philosophy cannot save. And as Aquinas reminds us, revealed theology is of a higher order than philosophical theology.

But philosophy as the passionate pursuit of wisdom (not intellectualism), is not in a contest with theology or the spiritual life. When one is theologizing one uses the results of philosophy. And when a Catholic is philosophizing according to the rigor of its own natural method they do so as a man or woman of faith. Perhaps a good reading of JPII, Fides et Ratio would help. Not everyone is called to be a professional theologian; some are called as devout Catholics to philosophy. One does not trump the other.
Your points are well taken. I do not wish to make it into the discussion, but I was relying on personal revelation through contemplation and I think I clearly saw the superiority of contemplation over “intellectualism.”

Is ‘the passionate pursuit of wisdom,’ through earthly words and phrases, in any way superior to the passionate pursuit of wisdom gained through contemplation? I don’t think so.
It’s not either-or. What would make a Catholic even think that?
Luke 10:
Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41 But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her."

Maybe we were just thinking differently. 🙂
If I were a Carmelite friar or a Carthusian monk I would have to watch that the philosophical search did not interfere with the stages of contemplative prayer that I was being drawn through into transforming union, if God so willed it.
Let Martha do that. I simply mean that that’s what Christ said.
As that is not the case I live by the Dominican maxim exemplified by Thomas even in his numerous philosophical endeavors, contemplata aliis tradere.
It’s a good and holy endeavor, and I never meant any otherwise.

LOVE! 🙂

PS Please give my words some honest reflection. You may not know what you are missing.
 
A further reason for my reaction to your pitting philosophy (viewed as intellectualism) against revealed truth (“heavenly contemplation”; “the golden key that trumps intellectualism”; “the better portion” than the Martha of philosophy apparently) occurred to me. Your use of the loaded term “intellectualism” in this context rather than the Church’s characterization carries with it the connotation of intellectualization.
Yes, Martha! I did not page-down to see your last post. Sorry again!

I’m intellectualizing, but I may be affecting the OP. 🙂
Intellectualization is a psychological defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress where thinking is used to avoid feeling.
That’s based on psychology and is based on their flimsy and error-prone intellectualism, and I possess a PhD in research psychology. I traded all that, plus a coveted position at the RAND corporation, for a contemplative-like lifestyle. I never looked back. I feel like Mary!
Perhaps in your days as an atheist that is indeed how and why you used your reason. But it is necessary to remember that from its earliest days in Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle through Cicero to Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas philosophy while faithful to its own method existed in a theocentric context and included a natural theology. Philosophy was a part of the theocentric humanism that characterized the cultural and intellectual life of the West and constitutes part of the nature presupposed by grace.
I did not know that about philosophy. Thanks.

Can we agree on the importance of LOVE? Is it under studied in philosophy? It is in psychology, and that’s when I realized the importance of the holy scriptures.

LOVE! 🙂

PS Are you a priest? You’re well educated!
 
Fr of Jazz, I do recognize that God can impart a far greater wisdom to whomever He pleases, at any time He wishes. So, yes, God can impart a far greater wisdom to you, a philosophy, than to any contemplatives who ever existed, but will He? In any event, I often pray to God that He spare me any pleasurable experiences until the Hereafter. Contemplatives know humility.

(My psychiatrist believes that many of my experiences emanate from mania! And I would not rule Satan out from producing mania to trick me, but the sublime Voice tends to follow me where ever I go psychologically, except actual social interactions.)

LOVE! 🙂
 
A further reason for my reaction to your pitting philosophy (viewed as intellectualism) against revealed truth (“heavenly contemplation”; “the golden key that trumps intellectualism”; “the better portion” than the Martha of philosophy apparently) occurred to me. Your use of the loaded term “intellectualism” in this context rather than the Church’s characterization carries with it the connotation of intellectualization.

Intellectualization is a psychological defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress where thinking is used to avoid feeling.

Perhaps in your days as an atheist that is indeed how and why you used your reason. But it is necessary to remember that from its earliest days in Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle through Cicero to Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas philosophy while faithful to its own method existed in a theocentric context and included a natural theology. Philosophy was a part of the theocentric humanism that characterized the cultural and intellectual life of the West and constitutes part of the nature presupposed by grace.
👍 Incontrovertible! If the intellectual defence of Christianity is worthless St Irenaeus - amongst others - shouldn’t have been canonised for establishing the foundations of Catholic theology and refuting the errors of the Gnostics who were leading many of the faithful astray.
 
Your points are well taken. I do not wish to make it into the discussion, but I was relying on personal revelation through contemplation and I think I clearly saw the superiority of contemplation over “intellectualism.”

Is ‘the passionate pursuit of wisdom,’ through earthly words and phrases, in any way superior to the passionate pursuit of wisdom gained through contemplation? I don’t think so.Luke 10:
Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41 But the Lord answered her, **“Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her.”**Maybe we were just thinking differently. 🙂

Let Martha do that. I simply mean that that’s what Christ said.

It’s a good and holy endeavor, and I never meant any otherwise.

LOVE! 🙂

PS Please give my words some honest reflection. You may not know what you are missing.
Well, can we agree that both ability to contemplate (in the way you describe) well and ability to “do Philosophy” well (just like, let’s say, ability to paint or sing well) are great gifts from God and are not to be insulted and belittled…?

Some are given one gift, some are given another.

Also, I don’t think it would be accurate to describe the things Martha was doing by word “Philosophy”… It would seem to fit what Mary did a bit more… 🙂
 
Well, can we agree that both ability to contemplate (in the way you describe) well and ability to “do Philosophy” well (just like, let’s say, ability to paint or sing well) are great gifts from God and are not to be insulted and belittled…?
Yes, of course!
Some are given one gift, some are given another.
Yes, of course! But the verses also implies that some gifts are greater, which is my point. 🙂
Also, I don’t think it would be accurate to describe the things Martha was doing by word “Philosophy”… It would seem to fit what Mary did a bit more… 🙂
I never intended for ‘philosophy’ to be considered. I was merely pointing something out for Fr of Jazz.

LOVE! 🙂

PS Wow, you’re from Lithuania! I’m 50% Lithuanian!
 
Your points are well taken. I do not wish to make it into the discussion, but I was relying on personal revelation through contemplation and I think I clearly saw the superiority of contemplation over “intellectualism.”

Is ‘the passionate pursuit of wisdom,’ through earthly words and phrases, in any way superior to the passionate pursuit of wisdom gained through contemplation? I don’t think so.

Luke 10:
Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41 But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her."

Maybe we were just thinking differently. 🙂

Let Martha do that. I simply mean that that’s what Christ said.

It’s a good and holy endeavor, and I never meant any otherwise.

LOVE! 🙂

PS Please give my words some honest reflection. You may not know what you are missing.
I think it would help if you defined (heavenly) contemplation as you understand it. Is it theology? meditating on the mysteries of Christ’s life? meditating on Scripture? prayer? contemplative prayer in the strict sense, or . . .?

I know that everything I said accords with the teaching and mind of the Church expressed in numerous documents on philosophy and/or St. Thomas. So either we are saying the same thing but from different angles, which is fine; or you are making a personal preference or proclivity of yours into a universal requirement, which is not fine; or you need to familiarize yourself with the mind of the Church on this matter, which is obligatory for us all.

Besides what puts you in a position to think I don’t contemplate profoundly the truths of our faith in prayer and study? Aquinas did both, as did JP II as can be seen in Fides et Ratio. Again, it seems like you’re engaged in either-or thinking.
 
Yes, Martha! I did not page-down to see your last post. Sorry again!

I’m intellectualizing, but I may be affecting the OP. 🙂

That’s based on psychology and is based on their flimsy and error-prone intellectualism, and I possess a PhD in research psychology. I traded all that, plus a coveted position at the RAND corporation, for a contemplative-like lifestyle. I never looked back. I feel like Mary!

I did not know that about philosophy. Thanks.

Can we agree on the importance of LOVE? Is it under studied in philosophy? It is in psychology, and that’s when I realized the importance of the holy scriptures.

LOVE! 🙂

PS Are you a priest? You’re well educated!
I am a priest and I was in education for many years.

Psychology is or can be a legitimate discipline; but it has been abused.

If you have made the decision you have, I’m sure you are recovering or rediscovering a lost area of your life. Be that as it may, it is highly commendable. A Catholic perspective on that choice can be fed on these books:

Josef Pieper, Leisure the Basis of Culture

_______, Happiness and Contemplation

Thomas Merton, New Seeds of Contemplation

The thing about philosophy is that we all have a set of philosophical convictions about life, man, being, knowledge, ethics, etc. We just don’t all hold and defend them formally. The view of the atheist referenced in the OP about science is actually a philosophical statement disguised by denying the meaning and value of philosophy. It is certainly not derived by the scientific method. To note and point that out explicitly and defend it formally goes a long way to clearing the air with the atheist and/or physicalist proponent.
 
Psychology is or can be a legitimate discipline; but it has been abused.
I think also its imperative for Catholics to seek the advice of Catholics in this field. They base their understanding of faith, reason, moral and ethical in the mind of the Church, thus their conclusions begin from this base point. This is clearly not the case in all areas of this field. Further for a Catholic it reduces conflict in the relationship via like communication of a common bond. Further still its of aid going back to the Priest in the Church, for now everyone is on the same page.

If your raised in the Church, then you would do well to understand “its part of your learned behavior” even if convoluted with various secular, religious ideals etc.
 
I think it would help if you defined (heavenly) contemplation as you understand it. Is it theology? meditating on the mysteries of Christ’s life? meditating on Scripture? prayer? contemplative prayer in the strict sense, or . . .?
All of the above; I meant it in a general sense, but I got my idea from Saint Anthony Mary Claret.

"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

I found this book on the kitchen table of my then recently deceased mother, and when I saw it I said to myself: I gotta have that book!
I know that everything I said accords with the teaching and mind of the Church expressed in numerous documents on philosophy and/or St. Thomas. So either we are saying the same thing but from different angles, which is fine; or you are making a personal preference or proclivity of yours into a universal requirement, which is not fine; or you need to familiarize yourself with the mind of the Church on this matter, which is obligatory for us all.
I do not doubt for one minute that you are in accord with Catholic teachings! But please look at where I’m pointing!!!

It’s both for me, I think (I’m not sure).
Besides what puts you in a position to think I don’t contemplate profoundly the truths of our faith in prayer and study? Aquinas did both, as did JP II as can be seen in Fides et Ratio. Again, it seems like you’re engaged in either-or thinking.
Did not you already tell me!

Again, yes, I agree with you! 🙂
 
I am a priest and I was in education for many years.
Congratulations!!! I need to be more reverent to you! 🙂
Psychology is or can be a legitimate discipline; but it has been abused.

If you have made the decision you have, I’m sure you are recovering or rediscovering a lost area of your life. Be that as it may, it is highly commendable. A Catholic perspective on that choice can be fed on these books:

Josef Pieper, Leisure the Basis of Culture

_______, Happiness and Contemplation

Thomas Merton, New Seeds of Contemplation
Take it from former research psychologist, psychologists make GREAT observations, but very poor theories! Some of the older theories are actually more insightful than the newer stuff.

Thank you for the book recommendation, but I cannot any longer comprehend anything I read! Something happened, and I lost all my power to comprehend, but I have a new spirit within me that is glorious! **And nothing I say is meant to offend!!! **

Luke 10: 37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new; for he says, ‘The old is good.’"

I have often considered what Christ was saying in verse 39! I have an extreme profoundness towards Judaism! I remember seriously considering a conversion to Judaism, but I re-chose Catholicism. You may enjoy the Tanya.

chabad.org/dailystudy/default_cdo/jewish/Daily-Study.htm

What the Mystical Jews believe may surprise you!
The thing about philosophy is that we all have a set of philosophical convictions about life, man, being, knowledge, ethics, etc. We just don’t all hold and defend them formally. The view of the atheist referenced in the OP about science is actually a philosophical statement disguised by denying the meaning and value of philosophy. It is certainly not derived by the scientific method. To note and point that out explicitly and defend it formally goes a long way to clearing the air with the atheist and/or physicalist proponent.
Yes, I agree!
 
I think also its imperative for Catholics to seek the advice of Catholics in this field. They base their understanding of faith, reason, moral and ethical in the mind of the Church, thus their conclusions begin from this base point. This is clearly not the case in all areas of this field. Further for a Catholic it reduces conflict in the relationship via like communication of a common bond. Further still its of aid going back to the Priest in the Church, for now everyone is on the same page.

If your raised in the Church, then you would do well to understand “its part of your learned behavior” even if convoluted with various secular, religious ideals etc.
I agree. But for the sake of clarity it is important to reaffirm that every field of study has its own methods of investigation and proof. The Church has stressed that the various branches of learning have a legitimate autonomy to working according to their own methods.
 
Congratulations!!! I need to be more reverent to you! 🙂

Take it from former research psychologist, psychologists make GREAT observations, but very poor theories! Some of the older theories are actually more insightful than the newer stuff.

Thank you for the book recommendation, but I cannot any longer comprehend anything I read! Something happened, and I lost all my power to comprehend, but I have a new spirit within me that is glorious! **And nothing I say is meant to offend!!! **

Luke 10: 37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new; for he says, ‘The old is good.’"

I have often considered what Christ was saying in verse 39! I have an extreme profoundness towards Judaism! I remember seriously considering a conversion to Judaism, but I re-chose Catholicism. You may enjoy the Tanya.

chabad.org/dailystudy/default_cdo/jewish/Daily-Study.htm

What the Mystical Jews believe may surprise you!

Yes, I agree!
That’s cool. I think we are holding the same Catholic truths and values but coming at them from differing points of view. If your comments were in a forum on spirituality they probably wouldn’t have raised any concerns. The context (forum for philosophy) and what could be viewed as a loaded term re philosophy (intellectualism) are what concerned me at the time.
 
That’s cool. I think we are holding the same Catholic truths and values but coming at them from differing points of view. If your comments were in a forum on spirituality they probably wouldn’t have raised any concerns. The context (forum for philosophy) and what could be viewed as a loaded term re philosophy (intellectualism) are what concerned me at the time.
It reminds me that I need to go to confession soon, but it’s also nice to hear that we have been reconciled with each other. 🙂

LOVE! 🙂

PS Do you ever hear ‘inner voices’ that you feel are coming from God or Satan? You may want to read this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11871741#post11871741
 
I think also its imperative for Catholics to seek the advice of Catholics in this field. They base their understanding of faith, reason, moral and ethical in the mind of the Church, thus their conclusions begin from this base point. This is clearly not the case in all areas of this field. Further for a Catholic it reduces conflict in the relationship via like communication of a common bond. Further still its of aid going back to the Priest in the Church, for now everyone is on the same page.

If your raised in the Church, then you would do well to understand “its part of your learned behavior” even if convoluted with various secular, religious ideals etc.
I have a PhD in psychology and I never ran across many theories that brought me closer to God.

Like in the field of philosophy, psychology is severely lacking in its study of LOVE! Don’t get me wrong, I think psychologists make GREAT observations, many that point to the Hands of God, but they produce very poor theories. 🙂
 
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