Friend confused about getting married

[hamburglar]

I have a friend who is engaged. She and her fiancee plan on getting married in around 18 months.

Her fiancee is a practicing Catholic in the Marine Corps. She was Baptized as a child, but never received First Communion or Confirmation. She currently considers herself “Agnostic.”

She talked to a priest, who told her that he would not marry them unless she got confirmed and received First Communion. My friend said that she would not do this, because this is not what she believes and she would be lying.

She doesn’t know what to do. She knows that her fiancee is required to marry in the Catholic Church under penalty of sin. She views it as “he has to get married in the Catholic Church, but not to me.”

She asked me what to do. I told her that she would need to talk to the Diocese, probably needing a dispensation from the Bishop.

What else should I tell her?

 

[1ke]

She is a Catholic, and she is bound by Catholic canon law. And, she is bound to the Catholic form of marriage whether she likes it or not.

And, Confirmation is a requirement for the Sacrament of Marriage, although not an absolute one. The priest can indeed refuse to marry them until she has completed her sacraments.

I’m not sure what kind of dispensation you think she can get from the Bishop.

If she truly wants to renounce her faith, then she would have to defect by a formal act. She would then be released from canon law obligations. However, this is no easy thing. She needs to talk to a priest. And, yes, she can contact the diocese regarding this.

I think she’s missing the forest for the trees, however. Why would an agnostic want to marry a practicing Catholic. And why would her Catholic fiance want to marry someone who doesn’t believe in God? Is she going to raise the children Catholic? That is his obligation, and hers too since she is a Catholic. Honestly, it’s a bad idea to marry someone who does not share your beliefs. But, that’s another thread.

 

[Thomas63116]

If he is the one who is the practicing Catholic, and who wants to make sure their marriage is recognized by the Church, then it probably makes more sense for him to be the one to take the lead in contacting his pastor and attempting to arrange for the marriage.

 

[noclevername]

If she truly wants to renounce her faith, then she would have to defect by a formal act. She would then be released from canon law obligations. However, this is no easy thing. She needs to talk to a priest. And, yes, she can contact the diocese regarding this.

So, I have a question. What if she did defect? Would she then be able to marry in a Catholic church if she promises to raise the kids Catholic? And what if she defects and then changes her mind years down the road? Will she be able to get back into the church? I’m not trying to start anything, I truly don’t know the answer.

 

[Julianna]

I did not make my confirmation until I was 25 yrs old. I was married at 23 in the Catholic Church. I was Baptized Catholic. My husband made his Confirmation when he was in middle school. Our priest in 1981, told us that as long as “ONE OF US” has made Confirmation we could be married. We were. I did ask about “both” having made Communion and Confirmation, and we were told “no, that is not done anymore”…just ONE in the couple has to have gone up through Confirmation. I did ask, do you (the priest) have to get “permission” from the bishop…??
I was told “no”.

The OP is now of a different belief than her husband. There is no reason for her to have to go through the sacraments (when her heart isn’t there)…just to appease a priest. You all need to find another Catholic Church.

My sis in law is Pentacostal. She and my brother were married in the Catholic Church. He had made his Confirmation. The priest only required that she was Baptized…it didn’t matter what the Christian faith was. They will be celebrating their 19th anniversary this year.

My mother and father were married in 1956 in the Catholic Church. My mother is Baptist. They were married at the front pew vs. the altar…now-days…people of different faiths are married at the altar. When my dad and mom went to dad’s Church and told Father V that mom was Baptist…the priest glared at him and yelled…“YOU KNOW BETTER”. And he was not going to marry them. My dad said, “no problem, we’ll go to her Church or we’ll go the Irish Parish Holy Name and get married there”. My mother told my dad, Father V will not be marrying me, ever. The other priest assigned to that Church, Fr. G, called my dad and told him that “he” would marry them. And so it happened. They were married 50 yrs.

So yes, you can get married in the Catholic Church…just not by that priest or perhaps that particular Church.

Don’t listen to the scare tactics of “one” priest or the hardliners on this forum.

 

[Corki]

ISo yes, you can get married in the Catholic Church…just not by that priest or perhaps that particular Church.

Don’t listen to the scare tactics of “one” priest or the hardliners on this forum.

Well, she can’t just go shopping for a parish that would turn the other way on this. The couple is supposed to be married in the bride’s parish or in the husband’s parish, if the bride is not Catholic.

 

[Julianna]

Well, she can’t just go shopping for a parish that would turn the other way on this. The couple is supposed to be married in the bride’s parish or in the husband’s parish, if the bride is not Catholic.

Where is that rule? Never heard of it. It’s not about “turning the other way” as if it’s a “bad” thing…because it isn’t. It is “customary” to marry in the bride’s church…that’s all.

 

[Sina]

Juliana, the point that you are missing is that she is not of just any other faith, she was baptized Catholic, therefore in the view of the Catholic church where she is seeking to be married, she is Catholic! If she had been baptized Lutheran, that would be a whole other story.

As Ike said, she either must “defect” as a Catholic, or seriously discern whether she wants to seek the other sacraments.

 

[Mintaka]

Generally people are supposed to marry in their parish; but if there’s a reasonable reason to do otherwise (like this one, or even something as simple as marrying where your family lives or there’s room for your guests), there’s no reason they shouldn’t marry in another Catholic parish somewhere else. They just need to call around.

Now, it is likely that the priest of another parish will ask them to attend marriage classes, and may even ask the woman to consider attending RCIA. (Not a bad idea in any case, if she’s marrying a practicing Catholic.) Your friend may have to make some kind of agreement as to the religion the kids will be raised in. Your friend’s fiance may also have to get some kind of dispensation from the bishop, although maybe not since she’s a baptized Catholic. The priest will know; I don’t.

But there’s no reason they can’t get married in the Church. No reason at all.

I wish them a long and happy life together, and pray that her husband’s witness will draw her back to the Church.

 

[harrisunt]

Well, she can’t just go shopping for a parish that would turn the other way on this. The couple is supposed to be married in the bride’s parish or in the husband’s parish, if the bride is not Catholic.

If they do not have the same faith, than the foundation of their marriage is flawed. They should really look at their reasons for getting married.

I guess that makes me a hardliner. Good!

 

[noclevername]

If they do not have the same faith, than the foundation of their marriage is flawed. They should really look at their reasons for getting married.

I guess that makes me a hardliner. Good!

Are you serious? Think really hard about what you just said.

 

[Corki]

Where is that rule? Never heard of it. It’s not about “turning the other way” as if it’s a “bad” thing…because it isn’t. It is “customary” to marry in the bride’s church…that’s all.

Canon law.

Canon 1118.1 A marriage between catholics, or between a catholic party and a baptised non-catholic, is to be celebrated in the parish church. By permission of the local Ordinary or of the parish priest, it may be celebrated in another church or oratory.

So they get married in the parish where at least one of them resides. This is geographically determined, not necessarily where they are registered.

Other interesting sections of the same document.

Canon 1071.2 The local Ordinary is not to give permission to assist at the marriage of a person who has notoriously rejected the Catholic faith unless, with the appropriate adjustments, the norms of canon 1125 have been observed.

Canon 1125 The local Ordinary can grant this permission if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:
Canon 1125.1 the catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power in order that all the children be baptised and brought up in the catholic Church;
Canon 1125.2 the other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the catholic party.
Canon 1125.3 both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.

 

[Corki]

It is “customary” to marry in the bride’s church…that’s all.

Juliana,

Custom isn’t the only reason. It is part of the pastor’s responsibility to ensure that the couple are properly prepared, that imediments are investigated, that dispensations are properly sought, if needed.

You are correct that it doesn’t have to be the bride’s parish. It can also be the groom’s parish but it is to be one or the other.

HamburgIar,

I was too late to edit my previous post but this is the problem that your friend has.

She has to either 1) comply with canon law as a Catholic or 2) formally defect and comply with canon law as a non-Catholic.

#1 means that, as a Catholic, her pastor can require (it is usually the Bishop who does the requiring) that she be Confirmed first.

OR if she does the formal defection, her groom-to-be’s pastor (or chaplain) can request dispensations. That’s #2/

There isn’t an in-between.

 

[Lifeisamazing]

If he is the one who is the practicing Catholic, and who wants to make sure their marriage is recognized by the Church, then it probably makes more sense for him to be the one to take the lead in contacting his pastor and attempting to arrange for the marriage.

I agree with telling her this. It sounds a little crazy that she went to the Catholic Church (which she has denounced) for guidance on helping her further negate her baptismal duties. Amazing! And, if it was me, I would not aide her in getting around the rules. This is for her potential husband to address, and not a place for any friend to intervene, IMO.

Sounds like the priest, for good reasons, has expressed concerns over blessing this union in the Catholic Church.

If his priest also expresses these same concerns then…
She has chosen to be agnostic, it is for her to choose to accept the sacraments and join in matrimony as a Catholic in full faith or not.

He is a practicing Catholic, then it would be his choice to marry her in a non-denom setting or not.

 

[harrisunt]

Are you serious? Think really hard about what you just said.

Yes I am serious. As a recently engaged man I have thought long and hard about the subject. A faithful person should not marry someone who openly objects to religion. Another Christian, sure… but someone who openly considers themselves an agnostic… you really think that is a healthy relationship based on faith?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I respectfully ask to be added to the list of hardliners. I just don’t get it, why does she want a Church wedding if she doesn’t want to submit to the same Church and get confirmed. What are the plans for the children? Raise them as agnostics? Will her future husband agree to raise the children as agnostics? If they want the raise the children as agnostics, they quite simply cannot marry in the Catholic Church. This is because, even if the bride defects from the Church by a formal act, the Catholic groom is still obliged to promise to give a Catholic upbringing to the children. Making promises and then not keeping them, I hope, is not even being considered. Something has got to give here. Just reading this situation made me dizzy, like watching a cat that moves in circles, trying to catch her own tail.

The bride has to listen to the priest and get confirmed and return to the Sacraments, then marry in the Church and raise the children Catholic. Or else, let her not marry this Catholic man, or let them both forget the Church and get a civil marriage and raise their kids agnostics.

Some may argue that she could also defect formally from the Catholic Church, and then marry her Catholic fiancee in the Catholic Church (provided that the Church agrees to marry them), knowing that her husband promised and has a duty to raise the kids Catholic. However, I don’t believe that this could ever work in practice. Why would an agnostic woman who defected from the Catholic Church, would ever want to marry a Catholic man and let her husband raise the kids in the Catholic faith? It doesn’t make sense to me.

None of this is meant as an attack on your friend, Hamburglar. I was raised Catholic, turned agnostic, and returned to the Church at some point. My head was full of unanswered questions and I was torn between trying to go into 2 different directions at the same time. Your friend is probably in a similar situation right now, and I wish her to find answers to her questions and to find the peace that I’m sure she is longing for.

 

[hamburglar]

Just to let everyone know, the reason I am trying to help her is because she asked. If I were a Priest, I would not preside at their marriage. I think it presents a grave problem if one spouse rejects the Church. Marriage is a Sacrament, it seems to me that both parties should acknowledge it as that and be willing to fulfill their duties as Catholics.

I know who the pastor is that rejected them. He is a very Holy and orthodox Priest. People say he’s just like I would be if I were a Priest.

She is aware that her children must be raised Catholic if they do get married. She does not have a problem with this. She also knows that she would have to take preparation classes, and is willing to do this.

The ideal situation would of course be for her to get Confirmed and enter back into the Church. She needs our prayers. Please pray for her return.

So they get married in the parish where at least one of them resides. This is geographically determined, not necessarily where they are registered.

Quick question: If I get married, I want to get married according to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. If neither my geographical parish nor my bride’s geographical parish offer this, what are we to do?

 

[Phemie]

Just to let everyone know, the reason I am trying to help her is because she asked. If I were a Priest, I would not preside at their marriage. I think it presents a grave problem if one spouse rejects the Church. Marriage is a Sacrament, it seems to me that both parties should acknowledge it as that and be willing to fulfill their duties as Catholics.

I know who the pastor is that rejected them. He is a very Holy and orthodox Priest. People say he’s just like I would be if I were a Priest.

She is aware that her children must be raised Catholic if they do get married. She does not have a problem with this. She also knows that she would have to take preparation classes, and is willing to do this.

The ideal situation would of course be for her to get Confirmed and enter back into the Church. She needs our prayers. Please pray for her return.

Quick question: If I get married, I want to get married according to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. If neither my geographical parish nor my bride’s geographical parish offer this, what are we to do?

Approach a parish that offers the EF and see if they will marry you. If the priest in that parish agrees to celebrate your marriage go see your own pastor for preparation and permission to marry in the EF parish. If it’s in another diocese, there is a bit more paperwork to do.

It would be no dfferent from a case I dealt with this morning. Both the bride and groom are from this parish but the logistics of international travel for the groom’s parents dictate that they get married in the city where his parents will first land. It’s less expensive and much less travel.

They visited that city, went to a parish that they felt comfortable with and asked to be married there (in 18 months). The priest agreed.

They came back home, came here for the pre-nuptial investigation and marriage preparation. The following will now happen:

• All the paperwork is sent to our Bishop with a “Petition for Testimonial Letter”.
• Our bishop will give the testimonial letter.
• The documents will then be forwarded to the priest who will marry the couple.
• He will fill out the petition for NIHIL OBSTAT.
• The documents will be forwarded to HIS bishop.
• His bishop will either grant or deny the NIHIL OBSTAT (it’s usually granted).
• The paperwork will be sent back to the ‘marrying’ priest.
• The wedding will be celebrated.
• We will be notified of the marriage because the bride was baptized here.

 

[1ke]

So, I have a question. What if she did defect? Would she then be able to marry in a Catholic church if she promises to raise the kids Catholic?

If she defects formally, then she makes no promises regarding the children. The Catholic does that.

And what if she defects and then changes her mind years down the road? Will she be able to get back into the church?

Yes, of course.

She could return to the Church, complete her Sacraments of Initiation, etc.

She is still a Catholic-- formal defection has a canon law impact only.

 

[Phemie]

If she defects formally, then she makes no promises regarding the children. The Catholic does that.

Yes, of course.

She could return to the Church, complete her Sacraments of Initiation, etc.

She is still a Catholic-- formal defection has a canon law impact only.

Although my understanding, from discussing it with people who were at the time working at the North American Forum on the Catechumenate, is that if she formally defects it’s not as simple as ‘come back, go to confession and all is forgiven’. The act of defection requires you to go through the same process as anyone else seeking to come into full communion. In her case she would be required to prepare for the sacraments of initiation anyway but even someone who had received all the sacraments would still have to go though that process.