Friend; What'[s your Roadblock?

[PRmerger]

Its not about St. Peter and the twelve. It isn’t about St. Paul. It isn’t about Abraham, or Moses, or King David, or Isaiah. Yet all of these, including the Blessed Virgin, point to Christ, and Him crucified.

Jon

If this were Facebook I’d click “Like!”

 

[Luvtosew]

May is not on every page in the Bible unless one wants to see her there.

 

[PRmerger]

May is not on every page in the Bible unless one wants to see her there.

She’s on every page that has someone praising God, submitting to Him, calling His name, praying to Him, doing His Will.

 

[Luvtosew]

I guess that would be a matter of opinion. I see worshpping God and Mary as two different things.

 

[Heather777]

Hi. Good question and what many Catholics would love to answer. You can expect many different answers to this depend on what strikes them as personal or important.
I would say there are quite a lot of verses mentioning Mary in the Bible and those should be sufficient. She should not draw attention to herself and besides, Marian spiritually stipulates that Mary is always bringing us nearer to Jesus. She is always pointing toward her son.

She is important because she is Jesus’ mother. No other human is given that privilege, and Mary is the one and only, Jesus’ real mother. Christianity preaches the importance of the family. Even the Trinity can be considered a family – The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. The Church always recognized this since the beginning.

As for Mary in the Bible, consider this:

1. She was there when Jesus was born.
2. She was there during Jesus first miracle in his ministry.
3. She was there when Jesus died on the cross.
4. She was there (in the cenacle of the upper room) when the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles during the Pentecost.

These were some of the most important events of Jesus personal life and we can find Mary always there.

God bless.

You are right about Mary of course… she was always there…she is His mother…, thank you for your answers.They have been very helpful and have given me some valuable insight into the whole Mary situation, I think I need to be more open about learning about Jesus’ Mother.I am really enjoying being on here and learning so much about the Catholic faith.
Heather

 

[PRmerger]

I guess that would be a matter of opinion. I see worshpping God and Mary as two different things.

And this is very Catholic of you to say. Catholics, as you know, worship God alone.

But you are creating a false dichotomy regarding what to see in the Bible. As if you can ONLY say, “I see God on every page” or “I see Mary on every page”. You are creating a false division. It need not be like that. God AND Mary can be on every page.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess that would be a matter of opinion. I see worshpping God and Mary as two different things.

Incidentally, I could say, “I see worshipping the Bible and worshipping God as two different things.”

One ought not be worshipping the Bible. It is not God.

 

[Reuben_J]

You are right about Mary of course… she was always there…she is His mother…, thank you for your answers.They have been very helpful and have given me some valuable insight into the whole Mary situation, I think I need to be more open about learning about Jesus’ Mother.I am really enjoying being on here and learning so much about the Catholic faith.
Heather

I honestly want to thank you for that response. It is not very often non-Catholic or non-Orthodox (perhaps with the exception of some Lutherans here) have very positive things to say about the role of Mary in the Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s not even a matter of the contradictions but also issues of theology. To my mind, the concept of the supposed sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross makes NO sense at all, either in terms of what I know of Jewish theology or even basic logic and philosophy, along with other concepts of Catholic/Christian belief. I’m hoping that being here on CAF may change that but at present, this is not the case.

If you want to be more specific that the sacrifice makes no sense in Jewish theology, perhaps we could address that.

I probably may not be able to express it eloquently but sacrifice offering as an atonement for sin is a major part of Judaism theology and which Christianity elaborates on. Of course the Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah but that’s another matter altogether.

You may be too ambitious if you think merely being on an internet forum, even if it is the CAF, could change your belief. You may learn something but you have to remember that posters here are merely anonymous and we don’t know their credentials. If you want to know more, probably it would be helpful to read into official Catholic sites on commentary and teaching on very difficult subject like Theology.

I hope you just enjoy yourself here exchanging ideas with other posters and let it be at that.

I can certainly grasp that, but when a religion is claiming to be an ABSOLUTE truth, there has to be a higher standard of evidence to prove that claim than ordinarily required. An absolute truth by its nature has considered all possible viewpoints in its conclusion and then answered them or given response to them in such a way that any sort of doubt, error or alternate interpretation is pretty much destroyed.

To my mind any person who claims to have an absolute truth is likely lying, as such a standard is almost impossible.

I humbly disagree in that they are lying. As I said, religious belief is a matter of faith and they believe what they think as absolute truth. It cannot be less than that. If that is so, then they would be considering leaving or not believing. I don’t think we should lie to ourselves about thing such as belief. It makes no sense at all to do that.

I don’t know what evidence you require to justify the truth in religion. I doubt if any religion can really do that. This was my contention in the earlier post. You are speaking like an atheist and if that is so, then there is an impasse in our discussion because it is about two people with different thought on religion.

 

[Luvtosew]

Incidentally, I could say, “I see worshipping the Bible and worshipping God as two different things.”

One ought not be worshipping the Bible. It is not God.

Yes but no where did I say I worship the Bible but God alone do I worship as Jesus said to do.

I do agree one should not worship the Bible.

We do agree on that.

 

[Reuben_J]

"Kouyate42:

To my mind any person who claims to have an absolute truth is likely lying, as such a standard is almost impossible.

I humbly disagree in that they are lying. As I said, religious belief is a matter of faith and they believe what they think as absolute truth. It cannot be less than that.

Like today Bible reading from the mass about a blind man named Bartemeous who threw away all the possession he had and looked for Jesus because he had heard about Jesus who could heal people. He rushed toward Jesus and asked Jesus to heal his blindness.

The act of throwing his possession (his cloak) away in order that he could catch up with Jesus is an act of faith. He believed that Jesus could heal him even though in actual fact it was not done yet on him. What about if Jesus could not heal him? Then he would lost his cloak in vain.

Faith is like that. It is believing in something even though you don’t see it (or haven’t happened yet). Luckily for blind Bartemeous, Jesus actually healed him of his blindness though there was no guarantee that could happen. He only had heard about Jesus who had healed people earlier on and that he was a descendant of David. And he could be the Messiah. But he had faith in his belief and he went for it.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes but no where did I say I worship the Bible but God alone do I worship as Jesus said to do.

And the only way you know that Jesus said that, Luv, is because the Catholic Church preserved his words for you.

As far as your never saying you worship the Bible, that is absolutely correct. It’s merely an example of people misunderstanding your practices.

When you read the Bible you are not worshipping it. When Catholics pray to Mary we are not worshipping her.

 

[JonNC]

And the only way you know that Jesus said that, Luv, is because the Catholic Church preserved his words for you.

“Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" - Luther

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

“Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" - Luther

Jon

Indeed.

And that segues nicely to:

“The original 16th-century revolutionaries had the mysterious conviction that you could attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – yet inexplicably seize their Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle.” --source

 

[Luvtosew]

And the only way you know that Jesus said that, Luv, is because the Catholic Church preserved his words for you.

As far as your never saying you worship the Bible, that is absolutely correct. It’s merely an example of people misunderstanding your practices.

When you read the Bible you are not worshipping it. When Catholics pray to Mary we are not worshipping her.

PR- I seldom think about Mary anymore, as I use to say the Rosary. I am aware that most RC’s do not worship the Virgin Mary as some non RC’s accuse them of. Also I’m aware that some do though. The only dogma I would have an issue with is the 5th if they passed it which I doubt they will. So its not an issue with me, and anyone who would not be a RC due to the Marian dogmas I would say that is not a good reason. As we know the Virgin Mary was and is a special part of Jesus. But no where does it say she is the way to the Father as Jesus is the way and our mediator, Now if Mary brings people closer to Jesus that is fine. I dont like to see pics of Jesus as a baby or a lamb on Marys’s lap, as I do not see our God that way at all. Personally I don’t even think I myself can comprehend God but he is there and here and everywhere. There is a fine line between worship and venerate, one that should not be crossed. So I am also aware that many people worship the Bible, that is our Christian story, even Hitchens said that is the one book he was never without, it has many life lessons in it. I know every RC is different, and they all believe different things, as most people I know are RC, but to tell you the truth, many Prot. denonimations are downright scarey to me with their thoughts, and I wont join any of them . I don’t know who wrote the Nt, and we can’t even know that for sure. But we do know the ECF’s in Rome had Rome backing them and that is how it came about finally to be put in a book.

I just don’t believe in organized religion anymore, one must believe this, this is the only way to salvation, and they all have their own ways. I say whatever works for a person, I follow the techings of Jesus and if the Virgin Mary is part of that for some people that is fine, but I do believe the Bible is focused on our God.

 

[PRmerger]

PR- I seldom think about Mary anymore, as I use to say the Rosary. I am aware that most RC’s do not worship the Virgin Mary as some non RC’s accuse them of.

Yes. I’m glad you know this.

But no where does it say she is the way to the Father as Jesus is the way and our mediator,

But no where does what say she is the way to the Father?

I don’t know who wrote the Nt, and we can’t even know that for sure.

But are you “for sure” that the NT is God’s revelation?

I just don’t believe in organized religion anymore,

But you do have to give credit to an organized religion, the Catholic religion, for giving you the Bible, and revealing who Jesus is to you, right?

I follow the techings of Jesus

You are agreed, though, that the teachings of Jesus came to you through an organized religion, yes?

 

[Luvtosew]

Indeed.

And that segues nicely to:

“The original 16th-century revolutionaries had the mysterious conviction that you could attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – yet inexplicably seize their Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle.” --source

I watched the Pillars of the Earth and now the World without End series, although fiction , all fiction has some non fiction to it. What a nighmare, the things people do in the name of God. Its still true today, not as bad. also we have to remember most people had no access to the Scriptures before the 1600’s, so they were going on what was taught. There is a lot of history of those years and most of it was not good. It makes one sick to see how people would gather around to see and watch people beinlng tortured. Say what you want about Hitchens and some of the Athesist but they made a lot of good points about organized religions. Most of it was about power, land, and money, despite the many good God fearing people who were pawns.

 

[PRmerger]

I watched the Pillars of the Earth and now the World without End series, although fiction , all fiction has some non fiction to it. What a nighmare, the things people do in the name of God. Its still true today, not as bad. also we have to remember most people had no access to the Scriptures before the 1600’s, so they were going on what was taught. There is a lot of history of those years and most of it was not good. It makes one sick to see how people would gather around to see and watch people beinlng tortured. Say what you want about Hitchens and some of the Athesist but they made a lot of good points about organized religions. Most of it was about power, land, and money, despite the many good God fearing people who were pawns.

Sure. And don’t forget the guys that Jesus chose to be his apostles. One betrayed him for 50 silver pieces. Another denied him. Most of them left him when he needed them most.

A sorry bunch, the lot of them. And yet, through the grace of God, they became the holiest men on the planet. At least, 11 of them did.

 

[Luvtosew]

Yes. I’m glad you know this.

But no where does what say she is the way to the Father?

But are you “for sure” that the NT is God’s revelation?

But you do have to give credit to an organized religion, the Catholic religion, for giving you the Bible, and revealing who Jesus is to you, right?

You are agreed, though, that the teachings of Jesus came to you through an organized religion, yes?

I agree with what you say, but I watch EWTN quite a bit or use to, and then I see they (some) the way to Jesus is through Mary and the way to the Father is through Jesus, so the best way is to start with Mary. Also that take Mary or pretend she is going up to receive the Host with you and she is up there at the the foot of the Cross. I don’t watch much EWTN anymore as yes so much is about the Virgin Mary, Mary this and Mary that, if it wasn’t for Mary we wouldn’t have Jesus, like the Father couldnt of got to us without Mary. No disrespect for Mary , but some of them do go overboard.

I give credit to the early men of the church in Rome for compiling the Bible into a canon and Rome, but we must know men had their hands in it.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree with what you say, but I watch EWTN quite a bit or use to, and then I see they (some) the way to Jesus is through Mary and the way to the Father is through Jesus, so the best way is to start with Mary. Also that take Mary or pretend she is going up to receive the Host with you and she is up there at the the foot of the Cross. I don’t watch much EWTN anymore as yes so much is about the Virgin Mary, Mary this and Mary that, if it wasn’t for Mary we wouldn’t have Jesus, like the Father couldnt of got to us without Mary. No disrespect for Mary , but some of them do go overboard.

I ask the question, then, that apologist Mark Shea asks regarding veneration of Mary: how is it that some Catholics venerate her too much but that some (Protestants? people on the CAFs?) folks get it “just right”?

Where is the “just right” line of respect for Mary and how do we know where that line is?