From Marian dogma to devotion

[mathematoons]

I have asked (rather aggressively, I admit) about Marian devotion and found some answers. I have been told that such a thing is not required to be saved. But I still have a question.

When we Catholics are asked why we are so devoted to Mary, we always bring in Marian dogma and prove it from Scripture and the Church Fathers of the first 3 centuries (which is significant because they lived before the dogma of the Trinity and the canon of Scripture were defined). So it is safe to conclude that Mary is the new Eve, and as such, was immaculately conceived (and therefore bodily assumed into Heaven) and is our mother and the Queen of Heaven. I understand all that.

What I don’t understand is how we get from these dogmas to the intense Marian devotion seen among Catholics, especially St. Louis de Montfort and his followers. What are the intermediate steps? How do we get from Mary’s special place in the Church and the universe to what looks like adoration (and would be called adoration if it were addressed to Jesus)?

I’m not looking for purely emotional responses. I want to know what the intermediate steps are.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I have asked (rather aggressively, I admit) about Marian devotion and found some answers. I have been told that such a thing is not required to be saved. But I still have a question.

When we Catholics are asked why we are so devoted to Mary, we always bring in Marian dogma and prove it from Scripture and the Church Fathers of the first 3 centuries (which is significant because they lived before the dogma of the Trinity and the canon of Scripture were defined). So it is safe to conclude that Mary is the new Eve, and as such, was immaculately conceived (and therefore bodily assumed into Heaven) and is our mother and the Queen of Heaven. I understand all that.

What I don’t understand is how we get from these dogmas to the intense Marian devotion seen among Catholics, especially St. Louis de Montfort and his followers. What are the intermediate steps? How do we get from Mary’s special place in the Church and the universe to what looks like adoration (and would be called adoration if it were addressed to Jesus)?

I’m not looking for purely emotional responses. I want to know what the intermediate steps are.

By acknowledging “Mary’s special place in the Church and the universe”?

 

[MaryT777]

I’m glad to see your post. I am not sure about intermediate steps but I hope some posts on this thread can help you with what appears to be seeing a alot of excessive marian devotion for you.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

I pray the rosary daily but I truly do not know any Catholics that in my opinion of course have what appears Marion devotion to the extreme that you see; therefore I cannot be of assistance but I know the other posters will offer some great (name removed by moderator)ut.l

 

[Cruxis117]

I have asked (rather aggressively, I admit) about Marian devotion and found some answers. I have been told that such a thing is not required to be saved. But I still have a question.

When we Catholics are asked why we are so devoted to Mary, we always bring in Marian dogma and prove it from Scripture and the Church Fathers of the first 3 centuries (which is significant because they lived before the dogma of the Trinity and the canon of Scripture were defined). So it is safe to conclude that Mary is the new Eve, and as such, was immaculately conceived (and therefore bodily assumed into Heaven) and is our mother and the Queen of Heaven. I understand all that.

What I don’t understand is how we get from these dogmas to the intense Marian devotion seen among Catholics, especially St. Louis de Montfort and his followers. What are the intermediate steps? How do we get from Mary’s special place in the Church and the universe to what looks like adoration (and would be called adoration if it were addressed to Jesus)?

I’m not looking for purely emotional responses. I want to know what the intermediate steps are.

I think there wouldn’t be these “intermediate steps”, the same way there weren’t intermediate steps for us to recognize that Jesus is God and to start worshipping Him as such. I can agree that at many times, what we do in veneration of the Blessed Virgin may seem like Adoration, but even St. Louis De Montfort in his “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin” states that compared to Jesus, Mary is but a speck of dust.

A good way to explain it would be what people have done with British Royalty throughout the past two centuries or more, especially within the last few decades. Many people have venerated and started paying attention to Kate Middleton’s sister now that Kate has been married to Prince William. When someone is related to someone of great importance, depending on that person’s place of importance we can end up venerating them almost immediately.

I suppose that the only intermediate steps there are ARE the dogmas themselves. For example, many of the devotions of the Blessed Virgin are based around those doctrines: The Miraculous Medal is actually called the Medal of the Immaculate Conception. The Rosary bookends the life of Our Lord with important events in the life of the Blessed Virgin from Scripture. Once you realize who Mary is, you learn to be devoted to her as she can lead us to Jesus Christ. It’s the love of Jesus Christ that drives those followers to have devotions to Mary, I’d reckon. This is why we don’t see these intermediate steps that you’re asking for, and why veneration can seem so much like adoration.

 

[mathematoons]

I think there wouldn’t be these “intermediate steps”, the same way there weren’t intermediate steps for us to recognize that Jesus is God and to start worshipping Him as such.

So why aren’t we devoted to other saints as much? Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven body and soul. Joseph also participated in Jesus’s upbringing. Mary is our mother, but we call Abraham “Father Abraham;” we even call our own priests “Father.” Mary is related to Jesus, but so are Elizabeth and John the Baptist. Mary was always sinless, but Adam and Eve were sinless until they fell, and John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb. Mary is the Queen of Heaven, but what does that have to do with our personal devotion? What does any of it have to do with our personal devotion?

That’s why I need intermediate steps.

I can agree that at many times, what we do in veneration of the Blessed Virgin may seem like Adoration, but even St. Louis De Montfort in his “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin” states that compared to Jesus, Mary is but a speck of dust.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

It is love of Jesus Christ that has driven me away from devotion to Mary. God is a jealous God, as we see throughout Scripture. It is only His mercy that allowed me to see the connection with Marian devotion. I thank Him that He helped me see it.

I know who Mary is. That’s why I love her too much not to let her lead me to Jesus as she has been trying. I had a friend as a teenager who loved to be in love. If he had fallen in love with my mom, she would have wanted him to stay away from her so he could be friends with me.

This is why it seems to me that the reason veneration seems like adoration is because veneration often becomes little more than a euphemism for adoration.

For some reason, veneration of other saints doesn’t have that problem with it. They are special people who loved God. They would not want to be venerated to the degree that Mary is, so why would Mary be any different?

Because the Saints know theirs is a sanctity far less than that of the Blessed Mother. They know - as any Catholic knows (or should know) - that Mary’s participation in the life of the Trinity (a participation to which we are all called) is of a higher “status” or “role” than ours or any and all of the Saints in heaven put together, canonized or not. The Catholic says, “Yes, this is what we have by grace and since these is what we have the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary - by grace - has it in spades!”

There is plenty to understand about Mary and her role in Salvation History, but one must have the proper attitude, i.e., humility to know when one doesn’t properly understand something and know that there is a source that can help clear away some, if not all, of what one doesn’t understand. (So please don’t blame God for your turning away from devotion to Mary; your misplaced zeal accomplished that on its own.) The late and great theologian, Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, wrote a book addressing the theology of the Church in Mary’s regard that you should consider reading. It’s entitled The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life. It would help you understand why the Church is insistent on the prerogatives of Mary and urges devotion to her.

The Church teaches that Mary IS an intercessor of prayer; whether we advert to her or not (or are aware of her intercession or not) is another thing.

Finally - and as I posted to someone struggling as you are - after all the “ink” on these Marian discussion threads has been spilt, it seems your whole exercise here comes down to presuming to instruct us how your non-Marian approach is better than the approach the Church urges upon the faithful in regard to the Blessed Mother. You cannot comprehend what Pope Paul VI expressed in Marialus Cultus: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship”, or the “Totus Tuus” of John Paul II.

 

[mathematoons]

There is plenty to understand about Mary and her role in Salvation History, but one must have the proper attitude, i.e., humility to know when one doesn’t properly understand something and know that there is a source that can help clear away some, if not all, of what one doesn’t understand. (So please don’t blame God for your turning away from devotion to Mary; your misplaced zeal accomplished that on its own.)

I think it’s very judgmental of you to assume I’m not humble enough just because I disagree with something that the Church does not require me to believe. I went overboard with Marian devotion, and God helped me see that I just can’t do Marian devotion without overdoing it. If you don’t believe me, then you’re calling me a liar.

I have done my research, but it doesn’t make sense. I know a lot, maybe more thn you, about her role in salvation history. I just cab’t see the connection. Maybe I’m just stupid. But to blame it on pride and misplaced zeal just confirms that something fishy is going on.

The Church teaches that Mary IS an intercessor of prayer; whether we advert to her or not (or are aware of her intercession or not) is another thing.

I never said she was not. Don’t put words in my mouth. It doesn’t help.

Finally - and as I posted to someone struggling as you are - after all the “ink” on these Marian discussion threads has been spilt, it seems your whole exercise here comes down to presuming to instruct us how your non-Marian approach is better than the approach the Church urges upon the faithful in regard to the Blessed Mother.

Which is no worse than your presuming to instruct me and others who question adoration of Mary that the Church officially teaches something it does not actually teach.

You cannot comprehend what Pope Paul VI expressed in Marialus Cultus: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship”, or the “Totus Tuus” of John Paul II.

The Church’s devotion. Not our individual devotions.

I was afraid this would turn into another name-calling match.

 

[mathematoons]

I’ve had a little time to cool off, and I see that I was too angry. I apologize. Maybe I should put a warning in my signature that I have a short temper!

It may just be that Marian devotion leads some people but not others to Jesus, and in the discernment process, I have found that I am one of those Marian devotion leads away from Jesus. Maybe it’s because I’m so close to my physical mother, I don’t know. All I ask is that others believe me when I say that it leads me away from Jesus. As an analogy, I love the Bible and it leads me to Jesus, but many are scared off by the Old Testament; it leads them away from Jesus.

All I wanted to know with this thread is how people get from dogma to devotion. The answers I’m seeing are to the effect of “if you have to ask, you’re too proud to know.” That is not helpful.

So I guess it was a mistake to start this thread, or maybe even to ask for help.

 

[De_Montfort]

But notice that he did not write anything about devotion to Jesus. That silence speaks volumes.

All of St. Louis de Montforts writtings are Christocentric. True devotion to Mary leads to union with Christ.

“If then we are establishing sound devotion to Our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to Our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to Our Lady distracted us from Our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case; As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.”

Jesus is the goal, Mary is a perfect way to him, it is completely Christocentric. Jesus Christ is the whole point of True devotion to Mary.

From your posts you seem to have the mindset of Mary is a rival of Christ, and this simply is not true. Mary is not our final end, so anything we give to her, be it love, honor, praise, she immediately gives it to Jesus.

MARIALIS CULTUS

“This will without doubt contribute to making piety towards the Mother of Jesus more solid, and to making it an effective instrument for attaining to full “knowledge of the Son of God, until we become the perfect man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself” (Eph. 4:13). It will also contribute to increasing the worship due to Christ Himself, since, according to the perennial mind of the Church authoritatively repeated in our own day,(72) “what is given to the handmaid is referred to the Lord; thus what is given to the Mother redounds to the Son; …and thus what is given as humble tribute to the Queen becomes honor rendered to the King.”(73)”

“As our love does not start with Mary, so neither does it stop with Mary. Mary is a window through which our humanity first catches a glimpse of Divinity on earth. Or perhaps she is more like a magnifying glass; she intensifies our love of her Son and makes our prayers more bright and burning.”
(Fulton Sheen)

“If the only charge Our Lord has against us on Judgement day is that we loved His Mother then we shall be very happy!”
(Fulton Sheen)

To accuse St. Louis de Montfort of not preaching devotion to Jesus is to not understand his writtings. Since you have said you probably know more than others I would pray over your issue.

 

[JM3]

I want to know what the intermediate steps are.

Prayer and contemplation.

Take Luke 1:41 and ask the Holy Spirit to show you what he is saying here. You must open yourself to His whispering.

 

[vames]

What I don’t understand is how we get from these dogmas to the intense Marian devotion seen among Catholics, especially St. Louis de Montfort and his followers. What are the intermediate steps?

This particular Marian devotion is a cultural phenomenon, like so many others in religion, so it has to be understood as such, in its historical context (the French school of spirituality, with its efforts to revive the faith and to emphasize the Catholic identity as opposed to the Protestant one) and aesthetical context (which is the European Baroque; stylistically, Total Devotion and the idea of “holy slavery” to Mary are fruits of a baroque mentality).
More on the French school here:
ewtn.com/library/montfort/Handbook/Frenchs.htm

So you can’t really find a logical development through intermediate steps, historically speaking. Such is the life of ideas: a generation rediscovers or even unearths a concept that suits its immediate needs and develops it according to its particular aesthetics.
Now the most interesting part is how the result of such a development is then appropriated and used by other generations for their own needs. I mean, was the True Devotion as popular in the 1950s, 1970s, 1980s etc. as it is today? And what exactly leads an American from the 2000s to adopt a French baroque devotion from the 1700s?
They attempt an answer here (see “Relevance and Prospects of Montfort’s Marian doctrine”):
ewtn.com/library/montfort/Handbook/Mary.htm
IMO some people are unconsciously attracted to it because it has the same staples as an elaborate game: steps and levels of difficulty (the 33-day preparation for the Total Consecration), exoticism (the ornate style) and the promise of a commitment similar to some kind of knighthood (the Slaves of Mary). But more than anything, these old writings offer authenticity (we can be sure that St Louis or St Alphonsus were TRUE believers, so people hope that they will overcome their latent doubts if they follow the same steps as these saints).

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

But notice that he did not write anything about devotion to Jesus. That silence speaks volumes.

The Love of Eternal Wisdom by St. Louis de Montfort

 

[DBT]

Maybe this will help …
Carmelite Ratio:

The particular aspect of the Blessed Virgin Mary that must be present in any person called to Carmel is that of an inclination to “meditate in the heart” (To ponder always). All the other aspects of Marian life and devotion can be present, for example, the Scapular, the Rosary. They are, however, secondary to this aspect of Marian devotion (Ratio #75).

The Ratio is the teaching (formation) document of the Secular Order of Carmel. We should pray as she did … to ponder always. In the Carmelite tradition, “recollection” or “prayer of the heart” should take precedence over other forms of Marian devotion.

Dave

 

[fred_conty]

Mathamatoons,
you mentioned something about St. Joeseph in one of your posts. That you observed was not as prominent as Mary is our lives, yet he too was great in the life of Jesus.

If you are ever go to Notre Dame in South Bend In., you will see streets, hospitals, churches, even the river, named after St. Joe. Back when, St. Joeseph was at the top of the list in that area.

But getting back, Mary considered St. Joseph the father of Jesus, for when 12 year old Jesus was lost in the temple, Mary said to Jesus, didn’t you know that your father and I were worried about you. She didn’t say, your foster father, but father. Being a father is not always about being a natural father, but rather a father in the heart. The one who loves is the real father.

I think this is the missing connection your looking for. It isn’t really about dogma, its about the heart. It’s the recognition of someone who loves you, and the gratitude and warmth that fills the heart. And that is pretty much it, she is loved as she is loved by Jesus. The thought has never occurred to me about worshiping her, only deep gratitude and appreciation for someone who loves me as her child. The same feelings the child Jesus had and still has. It is knowing that she is there praying for me when I need it and someone I can rely on.

I never think about the conflict of interest between thinking of Jesus and Mary. I just don’t see one. To me it is a family thing. Talking to one person in the family dosen’t take anything away from the other family member. It’s the same with my guardian angel when I talk with him, I don’t feel its taking anything away from anyone else. It’s the same with talking to a friend of mine, I don’t feel that is taking away from anyone else. I just don’t see it as any problem. Rather I see it as God’s will, in that it is done in the spirit of charity.

I don’t see it as a problem if I talk with Jesus, and not the Father and Holy Spirit; or to the Father and not to Jesus or the holy Spirit; or the Holy Spirit and not to the Father or Jesus.
Jesus did say to Phillip, “when you see me, you see the Father.”

I just talk and pray as the mood or spirit strikes me without giving it a second thought.
It’s all in the family. St. Michael, St. Jude, St. Joe are some others who I also engage in conversation. And when I do, I don’t feel I’m neglecting anyone else.

But my favorite saint is Mary because Jesus made her my mother. And that is why she is special.
She is special to me in a way that she was special to Jesus.
I love them both, but I fall on my face to Jesus, my saviour.
There is enough love to go around for everyone.

My heart goes out to those who are having such a hard time with this, it is such a blessing.

Just some of my own thoughts.

 

[mathematoons]

I think this is the missing connection your looking for. It isn’t really about dogma, its about the heart. It’s the recognition of someone who loves you, and the gratitude and warmth that fills the heart. And that is pretty much it, she is loved as she is loved by Jesus. The thought has never occurred to me about worshiping her, only deep gratitude and appreciation for someone who loves me as her child. The same feelings the child Jesus had and still has. It is knowing that she is there praying for me when I need it and someone I can rely on.

This is probably most of the problem. I used to be an atheist, and I converted because I reasoned that the existence of objective truth and morality led nowhere else except the Catholic Church. Logic is pretty much all I really understand. Heart things fly over my head. I hoped being saved would change that, but it didn’t.

I never think about the conflict of interest between thinking of Jesus and Mary. I just don’t see one. To me it is a family thing. Talking to one person in the family dosen’t take anything away from the other family member. It’s the same with my guardian angel when I talk with him, I don’t feel its taking anything away from anyone else. It’s the same with talking to a friend of mine, I don’t feel that is taking away from anyone else. I just don’t see it as any problem. Rather I see it as God’s will, in that it is done in the spirit of charity.

This is another problem for me. My mother is my one and only family member (father left when I was little, grandparents died long ago, aunts and uncles live too far). She is the only person on Earth I really love beyond the “love your neighbor” sense. For me, I have two Real loves. One is her, in the physical world. The other is God, in the spiritual world. One love per world. So when I tried to deepen Marian devotion, I couldn’t have two in the one slot that exists. I understand the sentences you’re writing, but the idea behind them simply doesn’t exist for me, if that makes any sense.

I don’t see it as a problem if I talk with Jesus, and not the Father and Holy Spirit; or to the Father and not to Jesus or the holy Spirit; or the Holy Spirit and not to the Father or Jesus.
Jesus did say to Phillip, “when you see me, you see the Father.”

The Bible and Church teaching say the three are one and the same, so that’s no problem for me either.

I just talk and pray as the mood or spirit strikes me without giving it a second thought.
It’s all in the family. St. Michael, St. Jude, St. Joe are some others who I also engage in conversation. And when I do, I don’t feel I’m neglecting anyone else.

I do that too, but for me, it’s more of a Socratic dialogue; you know those books Socrates wrote as a fictional dialogue between his teachers? (Peter Kreeft also likes to use that style.) I see it as a means of developing a thought.

But my favorite saint is Mary because Jesus made her my mother. And that is why she is special.
She is special to me in a way that she was special to Jesus.
I love them both, but I fall on my face to Jesus, my saviour.
There is enough love to go around for everyone.

My heart goes out to those who are having such a hard time with this, it is such a blessing.

Just some of my own thoughts.

Sorry, does not compute. What exactly does it mean for me, that she is my mother? I understand that she is the mother of the Church collectively, just like Eve is the mother of all humans. But mine personally? When I tried that, I fell into error. Besides, I already have a mother, as I mentioned.

 

[fred_conty]

You mentioned you are strong in the area of logic and reason. I can understand why you may find this difficult. Your notice that those who are devoted to Mary are heavy in their love for her.
They see her as personal, close and real. Just as someone who is very caring and loving.

It is a personal devotion and attachment. Logic really takes a back seat. There is logic but it’s not predominate. It is a special relationship between two people based on love.

I’ve seen others on CAF too that have some problems because their reason is so strong. It’s my own observation that any belief is difficult for them. But Jesus came for everyone and reason can be an ally in reaching for and understanding Jesus. And He will give us his help wherever we are. Just continue to ask and to work at understanding, and you will get there.

My best wishes to you for a holy season.

 

[mathematoons]

You mentioned you are strong in the area of logic and reason. I can understand why you may find this difficult. Your notice that those who are devoted to Mary are heavy in their love for her.
They see her as personal, close and real. Just as someone who is very caring and loving.

The big thing I notice is that they can’t defend it and just get emotional, and I have no respect for anything that can’t be defended without appeals to emotion. That’s why I left atheism.

It is a personal devotion and attachment. Logic really takes a back seat. There is logic but it’s not predominate. It is a special relationship between two people based on love.

But Mary can’t respond to the billions of Catholics who “have a relationship” with her. She is not God. And that’s one reason I think people treat her as God. They give her special abilities that she would have to be God to have.

But God, even in the form of Jesus, can do that and more. Even if there were trillions of trillions of people like in a science fiction story I read once, He could still talk to us all at once.

I’ve seen others on CAF too that have some problems because their reason is so strong. It’s my own observation that any belief is difficult for them. But Jesus came for everyone and reason can be an ally in reaching for and understanding Jesus. And He will give us his help wherever we are. Just continue to ask and to work at understanding, and you will get there.

My best wishes to you for a holy season.

I have no problem with believing Scripture and Church teaching, and a loving relationship with God. That entire system makes sense within itself; secularism doesn’t. There is a wonderful unity within it all. But the concept of a personal relationship with Mary and the other saints sticks out like a sore thumb. I understand their place in the universe because God has revealed it through the Church, but the Church does not teach anything about a personal relationship with them, as far as I know. If that is true, then it is man-made religion and has no place among true believers, or at least, that’s how I understand it.

 

[MHT32]

Mary exists with all the Saints and God outside of time. They dont exist on our time, so any given Saint could hear millions of prayers and intercede possibly instantly. The key to understanding the possibility that Mary hears billions of prayers and answers them is remembering that Heaven doesn’t operate on our concept of time.

 

[InJesusItrust]

The intermediate steps seem to not be very logical. You have to see things in a poetic light rather than a logical light.

Consider the pierced heart of Mary. Jesus’ heart was pierced too at the cross. The fact that both their hearts are pierced at the cross singles out Mary to all the other saints in the Bible. She is intimately connected to the Trinity: The Holy Spirit shadowed over her and gave her a child. There are these and so many other things, like how honoring the Ark of the OT does not detract from God but insulting it does, that points to the high honor of Mary. While a purely logical case is hard to make, there is evidence for it.

Logical positivism does not apply to how truth truly operates.

 

[mathematoons]

Mary exists with all the Saints and God outside of time. They dont exist on our time, so any given Saint could hear millions of prayers and intercede possibly instantly. The key to understanding the possibility that Mary hears billions of prayers and answers them is remembering that Heaven doesn’t operate on our concept of time.

Ok, but does she ever talk back? I have only heard God talk to me. Never Mary or another saint.

And where is it taught that they answer us directly? A relationship is a two-way thing.