From Scotland, Pope on independence: Sometimes right, sometimes wrong

[lizardley]

Pope Francis has entered the debate over Scottish independence saying it must be ‘handled with care.’

In an interview with a Catalonian newspaper, the Pope was asked if he was worried about the risk of separation. The Pontiff replied that he was worried about ‘any division’ and in his answer touched on the Scottish situation and what he believes are the differences between ‘independence for emancipation and independence for secession.’

Read report: sconews.co.uk/news/38029/pope-on-independence-sometimes-right-sometimes-wrong/

 

[CutlerB]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-interview-with-la-vanguardia—full-text-45430/

His Holiness has done it again: The Pope has given an interview to “La Vanguardia” in which he discusses a wide range of topics, ranging from poverty to the Middle East, Pope Pius XII to Pope Benedict XVI, from the Papal Office to the Roman Curia.

Two comments of his particularly caught my eye:

1. Pope Pius XII

“What worries me regarding this subject is the figure of Pius XII, the Pope that led the Church during World War II. They have said all sorts of things about poor Pius XII. But we need to remember that before he was seen as the great defender of the Jews. He hid many in convents in Rome and in other Italian cities, and also in the residence of Castel Gandolfo. Forty-two babies, children of Jews and other persecuted who sought refuge there were born there, in the Pope’s room, in his own bed.”

2. Benedict XVI’s abdication

“Pope Benedict has made a very significant act. He has opened the door, has created an institution, that of the of the eventual popes emeritus. 70 years ago, there were no emeritus bishops. Today how many are there? Well, as we live longer, we arrive to an age where we cannot go on with things. I will do the same as him, asking the Lord to enlighten me when the time comes and that he tell me what I have to do, and and he will tell me for sure.”

That latter one sounds to me as though His Holiness is planning to do the same as Pope Benedict. I am not sure I like the idea.

 

[McCall1981]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-interview-with-la-vanguardia—full-text-45430/

His Holiness has done it again: The Pope has given an interview to “La Vanguardia” in which he discusses a wide range of topics, ranging from poverty to the Middle East, Pope Pius XII to Pope Benedict XVI, from the Papal Office to the Roman Curia.

Two comments of his particularly caught my eye:

1. Pope Pius XII
2. Benedict XVI’s abdication

That latter one sounds to me as though His Holiness is planning to do the same as Pope Benedict. I am not sure I like the idea.

I agree, he has mentioned it several times before, but this quote seems to imply it’s more of a “when” than an “if”. Not quite sure how to feel about it…

 

[CutlerB]

I agree, he has mentioned it several times before, but this quote seems to imply it’s more of a “when” than an “if”. Not quite sure how to feel about it…

Father Z had an interesting theory about the Pope renewing his Argentine passport, in that regard.

 

[Origen52]

I agree, he has mentioned it several times before, but this quote seems to imply it’s more of a “when” than an “if”. Not quite sure how to feel about it…

I believe the Holy Spirit has spoken to the church through the courageous action of pope Benedict. The church is in a tough place right now, it will need faithful, physically strong popes to lead her through very rough times. Whatever Pope Francis decides, I trust he will do so with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[twf]

What is the problem with the Pope abdicating when the time comes? Surely we don’t want a man who is unable to take on the full burden the papacy demands suffering day in and day out…that seems quite selfish. As the Holy Father rightly points out…we are simply living longer. Bishops are now expected to retire. The Pope is a bishop. I think in the last 150 years or so, since Vatican I, many lay Catholics have tried to make the pope into something he is not…some mystical fourth degree of holy orders…something above a bishop, different than a bishop…but he isn’t. The Pope is the head of the college of bishops and the head of the Church, but at the end of the day he is a bishop. There are only three degrees of holy orders.

Praise God for the vindication of Pius XII!

 

[CutlerB]

What is the problem with the Pope abdicating when the time comes? Surely we don’t want a man who is unable to take on the full burden the papacy demands suffering day in and day out…that seems quite selfish. As the Holy Father rightly points out…we are simply living longer. Bishops are now expected to retire. The Pope is a bishop. I think in the last 150 years or so, since Vatican I, many lay Catholics have tried to make the pope into something he is not…some mystical fourth degree of holy orders…something above a bishop, different than a bishop…but he isn’t. The Pope is the head of the college of bishops and the head of the Church, but at the end of the day he is a bishop. There are only three degrees of holy orders.

Praise God for the vindication of Pius XII!

I fully agree on that last part.

The reason I’m not sure about regular abdications, that is, Papal retirements, is that it seems to make the Papacy into just another job. Yes, the Pope is a Bishop, but he is not bound by Canon Law as other Bishops are. The Pope is absolutely free to choose what he wants to do.

I should like to stress that I don’t presume to have some right to tell the Pope what to do. I don’t have that. I do think, however, that it weakens the institution of the Papacy to have one, two or even three (who knows!) Popes Emeriti. Saint John Paul II showed us that it is possible to keep going.

 

[Origen52]

I fully agree on that last part.

The reason I’m not sure about regular abdications, that is, Papal retirements, is that it seems to make the Papacy into just another job. Yes, the Pope is a Bishop, but he is not bound by Canon Law as other Bishops are. The Pope is absolutely free to choose what he wants to do.

I should like to stress that I don’t presume to have some right to tell the Pope what to do. I don’t have that. I do think, however, that it weakens the institution of the Papacy to have one, two or even three (who knows!) Popes Emeriti. Saint John Paul II showed us that it is possible to keep going.

Pope Benedict had a close up view of the last years of John Paul II’s papacy. It may be one of the reasons he felt inspired to step down. For all we know it was John Paul himself, who inspired Benedict’s abdication. We need to trust that ultimately the Holy Spirit is in charge, or the papacy will become just another job, and Catholicism just another denomination.

 

[Nan_S]

In retrospect I have wondered why Pope John Paul II also didn’t step down. He was so enfeebled by Parkinson’s disease that he was close to being a figurehead pope in his final years. If he had stepped down the whole sexual abuse crisis might have been handled a lot sooner, before it completely exploded on the church.

The only conclusions I have are that Pope John Paul II didn’t consider retiring because the people who had loved him for so long did not want to see him go, and he may have been too sick to rationally understand how enfeebled he had become.

Thank goodness for Pope Benedict. His body was failing him, but his mind was still strong enough to know that he couldn’t continue.

For those of you who never heard: Pope Benedict’s health was generally kept under wraps, but one news source claimed that he may have already suffered a small stroke, was blind or nearly so in one eye, and was losing weight at a tremendous rate. If he had stayed in office and maintained a full schedule for Lent and Easter, there was a strong chance he wouldn’t have lived through the end of the Easter season.

 

[CWN_News]

Pope Francis condemned “the idolatry of money,” defended the record of Pope Pius XII, expressed misgivings about European separatist movements, and dismissed concerns about his own …

More…

 

[FollowChrist34]

I believe the Holy Spirit has spoken to the church through the courageous action of pope Benedict. The church is in a tough place right now, it will need faithful, physically strong popes to lead her through very rough times. Whatever Pope Francis decides, I trust he will do so with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, agreed. We need sharp, tough Popes in this world. I would not mind Popes stepping down due to age, exhaustion, health. It’s good for them and the Church. JP II was a saint - different ball game.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I have always seen Scotland as culturally distinct from England. From afar, I don’t see what the advantage of independence is, economically or otherwise. It would certainly weaken the UK. But it sounds like it is a very, very real possibility. If that’s what Scotland wants, I am fine with that.

 

[twf]

I fully agree on that last part.

The reason I’m not sure about regular abdications, that is, Papal retirements, is that it seems to make the Papacy into just another job. Yes, the Pope is a Bishop, but he is not bound by Canon Law as other Bishops are. The Pope is absolutely free to choose what he wants to do.

I should like to stress that I don’t presume to have some right to tell the Pope what to do. I don’t have that. I do think, however, that it weakens the institution of the Papacy to have one, two or even three (who knows!) Popes Emeriti. Saint John Paul II showed us that it is possible to keep going.

Your argument could be used for all bishops just as readily as it is for the pope. The episcopate is of divine origin…the Catechism and Vatican II clearly teach that each bishop is a true vicar of Christ and receives his authority from Christ (by virtue of apostolic succession). The episcopate is just as fundamental and necessary to the divine constitution of the Church as is its head, the Bishop of Rome. The office of bishop is not “just a job”, yet the Church now expects bishops to retire as a practical reality of human weakness. That being said, no man (the pope included) who has once been consecrated a bishop ever ceases to be a bishop, even if he steps down from a particular position…

 

[CutlerB]

Pope Benedict had a close up view of the last years of John Paul II’s papacy. It may be one of the reasons he felt inspired to step down. For all we know it was John Paul himself, who inspired Benedict’s abdication. We need to trust that ultimately the Holy Spirit is in charge, or the papacy will become just another job, and Catholicism just another denomination.

Agreed, and the Papacy should not be just another job.

Your argument could be used for all bishops just as readily as it is for the pope. The episcopate is of divine origin…the Catechism and Vatican II clearly teach that each bishop is a true vicar of Christ and receives his authority from Christ (by virtue of apostolic succession). The episcopate is just as fundamental and necessary to the divine constitution of the Church as is its head, the Bishop of Rome. The office of bishop is not “just a job”, yet the Church now expects bishops to retire as a practical reality of human weakness. That being said, no man (the pope included) who has once been consecrated a bishop ever ceases to be a bishop, even if he steps down from a particular position…

Which “argument”? I wasn’t trying to make one, but only expressing my feeling. Yes, the episcopate is of divine origin, yes it is permanent, yes it is foundational. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, yes, but he is not just another Bishop. In the sacramental sense, yes, but not otherwise. About the Church expecting Bishops to retire: Yes, that is true. But that is a matter of ius mere ecclesiasticum, which the Pope is not bound by. He can choose to abdicate, but he doesn’t have to.