From the "Never-Trump" folks at National Review....Trump's first year accomplishments

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Ridgerunner:
… and largely blamed his personality for his certain loss.
His certain loss? There you go again. No pollster predicated a certain loss.

And while many criticized his character, IIRC Trump himself promised to change and become Presidnential - the best ever, no doubt. I suspect that some reluctant supporters thought he might be a different man as President. They were mistaken.
Most of the media was predicting a certain win - for Hillary! So I guess that could be
interpreted as a certain loss for DJT.
 
Most of the media was predicting a certain win -
That is simply not true. It is astonishing that people adhere to misperceptions of reality with such tenacity. Reality is really not so subtle.
 
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It is astonishing that people adhere to misperceptions of reality with such tenacity.
Yes. People believe the reality of what they see and hear, and it’s often difficult to persuade them that they didn’t.

The real misperception was on the part of those who predicted Trump losing right down to election night.
 
The real misperception
Humans have the ability to make predictions about future events. Such predictions, however well-informed by fact and cogent analysis, are not destiny. They are often probabilistic, giving relative odds on various outcomes. The fact that an outcome, against the odds, can occur should surprise no one. Such an occurrence does not provide, in and of itself, evidence of a failure in the predicitve methodology. It would be great if folk could get beyond their innumeracy or their determination to show the establishment to be wrong, and speak sensibly about predictive modelling rather than greasing the skids for a return to dark ages.

Stubborn insistence of misconceptions about events that have already occurred is another matter altogether.
And that is what was being noted in this thread. But I am sure that you already knew that.
 
Very nicely worded.

But you’re right in saying the point of the above discussion was whether people remembered correctly how Trump’s loss was widely and almost universally predicted. And, indeed, you come very close to agreeing with that.
The fact that an outcome, against the odds, can occur should surprise no one. Such an occurrence does not provide, in and of itself, evidence of a failure in the predicitve methodology
 
people remembered correctly how Trump’s loss was widely and almost universally predicted.
Not quite. There is a distinction - an infinite one, technically - between long odds and certainty.
Remembering modest (1/3) to long (1/20) odds against some outcome as certainty against it is either a false memory or a mistaken idea of probabilistic predictions.
 
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I wonder if you aren’t playing with words… almost everyone was predicting a win for HIlary. That computes to almost certain loss for DJT… or am I missing something?
 
I wonder if you aren’t playing with words… almost everyone was predicting a win for HIlary. That computes to almost certain loss for DJT… or am I missing something?
No, you are not. He allows for some allegory when he is describing the despicableness of Trump, et al…but then he argues against someone who says Trump was “certain” to lose the election because, as any statistician will tell you, 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance is not a certainty.

I mostly just ignore his posts because of this.
 
or am I missing something?
Yes, thanks for asking.

Most everyone predicted a Hillary win. But the serious predictions were not just a selection of this candidate or that, but had odds attached to them made on the basis of polling data, with MoE’s, voter turnout models, and models of the cross-correlation of the variances in state-wide polling data. The latter attempts to model departures from randomness in the how a candidate may do, withing the polling range, in one state versus another.

As the election approached, especially in the last ten days, the polls tightened and the best model (538), while still favoring Clinton, had Trump with a 1 in 3 chance of winning. Trump’s victory facing 1 in 3 odds is an upset of sorts, but not one that calls into question the entire edifice of polling. (I’ve rolled snake eyes from time to time even thought the odds are 1/36 against.) I don’t recall seeing serious polls that gave odds beyond 20:1 - perhaps there were. At the simpler level of predicting the aggregated vote, rather than the electoral college outcome, the polls did very well.

When people opine that the outcome of this year’s election, compared to predictions shows that statistical methods of inference are fake science, that the modelers are hacks who don’t know what they are doing, or that they will never believe another poll, those opinions are not justified by what happened, and represent an alarming step toward the dark ages.

Perhaps people don’t really who vent such opinions really don’t mean them. But I think that there is a strong sense of anti-intellectualism in the Trump fans, and fear that the lasting accomplishment of Trump will be to destroy our commons sense and respect for knowledge. That will not be the end of the world - no other country is buying into that - but it will be the end of our leading edge.
 
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Good plan I do as well.I long ago recognized the futility of debating or even just commenting on his and a few other posters’ here on the Forum. A real waste of time IMO
 
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Most everyone predicted a Hillary win
Yes.
I think that there is a strong sense of anti-intellectualism in the Trump fans
Why? Because some didn’t believe the polls reflected what people were thinking? At least you didn’t say “deplorables”, and perhaps one can be thankful for that.
the lasting accomplishment of Trump will be to destroy our commons sense and respect for knowledge. That will not be the end of the world - no other country is buying into that - but it will be the end of our leading edge.
For goodness sake, DVDJS, doubts about polls that often didn’t agree with each other is going to destroy common sense and respect for knowledge? If they were so wonderful in their methodology, they would not have disagreed so often. In the outcome, most were wrong anyway. Is respect for knowledge to be equated with insisting someone was right even when they were wrong? Seems the other way around to me.
 
I mostly just ignore his posts because of this.
Something in some post in some other thread led me to believe DVDJS is a “she”, not a “he”. But I could be mistaken about that, being anti-intellectual and all.
 
What is freaking out the career politicians re Trump is his ability to take his business experience and transition this experience into his governing.Hechas exposed the fact that one needn’t be an entrenched lifetime politician to be effective.This is exactly why he appealed to those who voted him into office.He isn’t be holding to any special interest groups isn’t being bought .Of course the ever complicit media will continue to paint him in the worst possible light.
 
Did you watch election night news? I watched Fox and then started thinking they would skew towards Trump to make it interesting so I turned to watch MSNBC and the guy by the map counting votes was explaining precinct numbers and why we had to watch precinct by precinct. The news people on there were holding off calling numbers on the chance some precinct was holding out–and it seemed several were slow to report… The guy by the map was giving such a good explanation about it that I almost understood what he was saying… and then the tide began to turn… for Trump. The news people got real quiet and the guy by the map just kept on explaining never missing a beat until he finally realize what had just happened… Then he got quiet… There wasn’t one person on that news panel who gave Half a chance of Trump winning. Not one…
 
This is exactly what my DH says about the split in the Repub party. Some don’t want USA to know you don’t have to be a career politician to run the country. Makes sense to me. We have all been hood-winked…
 
Why? Because some didn’t believe the polls reflected what people were thinking?
That is a longer discussion, that involves many things related to science, education, respect for the truth. Why on earth would you suggest only one thing as the source for that thinking - even if that idea is a nice example.
At least you didn’t say “deplorables”, and perhaps one can be thankful for that.
Well, I will break my typical habit, per your earlier request. This is a gratuitous remark that I suppose is meant as an insult. Although more fundamentally it likely to be part of the assault on truth, cleverly stated - almost Trumpian, in that regard - for plausible deniability.
For goodness sake, DVDJS, doubts about polls that often didn’t agree with each other is going to destroy common sense and respect for knowledge?
Where to begin?
I am concerned with a common idea of what knowledge is and a respect for it, and concerned about the epistemological chaos - as Damon Linker put it - that I see ushered in with Trump. The attitude that people have shown about polling is one simple example of the problem, but don’t pretend for a moment - however convenient that misrepresentation is to your dismissive posture - that that is the source and totality of the problem. Nevertheless, after my rather lengthy discussion of the polls, you lapse to the they “were wrong” posture that sadly doesn’t reflect the least interest in understanding anything.
 
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