From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Elizabeth502]

I’m sorry, if anything I said was in any way violative of the TOS…my apologies then, will not mention again

Not a problem. Was just a friendly warning that people can get infractions, and/or a thread pulled, if it starts wandering into unrelated historical controversies like Galileo, etc., to “prove” that moral absolutes are elastic.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Nor do I think that just cause a couple can not “relax” about pregnancy…that such a couple is acting necessarily in a way …interiorly or exteriorly that is disordered per se. Often there can be a very legit stressful reaction …

Hopefully that’s not what you thought I was referring to. I wasn’t saying that their behavior is disordered if they can’t relax, nor that planning births is not “legitimately” stressful. I’m saying that it is dificult to relax about one’s love-making if pregnancy is ‘do or die.’ Not every Catholic couple shares the sentiment that every pregnancy is a gift. Despite the fact that anyone might believe they “should” see every pregnancy as a gift. (If they did, they probably would not be using any kind of planning, including NFP. )

 

[cviolette]

Thanks for the detailed response.

As for the couple where one repents and the other does not…that is a case calling for prayer etc for the one who has not repented (just like other like cases).

As to what to say of the intercourse between this couple…I am afraid I do not have a full answer I will give you my current thoughts…certainly his attitude is a contraceptive attitude … since he is not repentant he still intends the sterilization …the non-openness to life…his intent is against the part of the very meaning that such an act is to have.

It is a difficult situation because my husband does not believe in confession and feels contraception is fine. I don’t feel like I am sinning because I would love to have it reversed and have another child and regret having it done. I have gone to confession. But I do feel like the act itself is not healthy for me because the marriage does not feel blessed.

But as to how I would theologically describe the act of intercourse with a spouse who intends it to be basically contraceptive…again I can not fully offer an opinion. On the one hand nothing is being done now to frustrate the act …what was done has been repented by the spouse who did it and been forgiven…so on the one hand they are in the situation like a couple where the wife is infertile (the marital acts of infertile couples is not meaningless in any way! for infertile couples do not intend to frustrate the act…but are indeed suffering often from the infertility…they are not closed to life)…but on the other hand the husband is not repentant and his approach to the marital act is not correct here…it is gravely disordered…and yes there is a kind of selfishness here on his part (just as in any grave sin for that matter!) perhaps there is a lessening of culpability for one reason or another on his part? Due to fear regarding his wife? I do not know. But certainly he is not yet in the place he needs to be for his sake and for the full good of their marriage.

I do know the main reason that he wanted me to have one is because he feels that my life would be at risk. But even if I was not at risk, he does not want more children.

(Now on a related side note… if they have a “serious reason” and they would it would seem if a life is at stake…(not that the “serious reason” to use NFP to avoid must be life or death…there are all sorts of things that come up) …she would want perhaps to use NFP …due to the risk to life…for is there not a small chance of pregnancy even if such has been done to a woman? )

Another pregnancy would be risky and there would be complications but not necessarily life threatening. I feel it was an over reaction of my doctor and husband and I would be fine with another baby.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for the detailed response.

Sorry I could not be of more help…but certainly speak with your confessor and give CA a call…I am sure both know have advised those in your situation many times…

Let us always live in Christ! In him is true life

 

[Bookcat]

I post this again. Why…cause its great and important to read.

"Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

The whole thing is wonderful…one of my very favorites…do not miss a word of it:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

 

[Odell]

It’s not at all about the days of abstinence for me. It’s the whole kit n caboodle. BOTH parties can feel pressure to have sex on days when they really aren’t in the mood just because they know they have a period of abstinence coming up, or to have sex more often during those times when they are able just for the sake of it. This isn’t pressure coming from one spouse or another, just pressure the spouses put on themselves.

I’m not going to disagree with you there. But both parties can feel pressure to have sex when the kids are with the in laws. Pressure doesn’t necessarily take away the passion.

Also, don’t forget that NFP requires that the wife pretty much NEVER gets to have sex during the times when she most feels like it (during the time around ovulation).

Thats not to say she doesn’t desire sex when she is not ovulating. There are times when my wife is ovulating that I would love to have sex.

What morality and conscience bids us to do, often involves some measure of pain and requires the renunciation of some pleasure. The pain involved, or the pleasure which I must forego, is not the decisive consideration if I am to act rationally. what is more, it is not fully identifiable beforehand. Pleasure and pain are always connected with a concrete action, so that it is not possible to anticipate them precisely, let alone to plan for them or, as the utilitarians would have us do, even compute them in advance. Pleasure is, after all, a somewhat elusive thing. PJPII

Do you not see the problems of a contraceptive society?

People who don’t like NFP aren’t a bunch of sex-crazed maniacs, contrary to what many of you think. We just don’t want to have sex according to a timetable every time. For some people, it sucks the romance right out of it. Especially when you have children, because your sex lives are already not very spontaneous. It reduces a couple to simply having sex when the CAN instead of when they actually want to.

That’s like saying those who wait for the honeymoon it will suck the romance right out of the act.

I’m sorry I’m just not buying it.

The problem with this spontaneous lovemaking is that your emotions control the will. Your will should control your emotions. You have this reflex mode of action, which is not dependent on conscious thought. Man by nature is capable of rising above instinct in his actions. If it was otherwise, morality would have no meaning in this context, would simply not exist, but sexual morality as everyone knows is a universal phenomenon, something common to all humanity.

Does the sexual urge come into being because each sex possess a value for the other (femininity/ masculinity), or do these attributes, on the contrary, posses a value for them because of the existence of the sexual urge? The later must ring true because inevitably the sexual urge in a human being is always in the natural course of things directed towards another human being- this is the normal form which it takes.

If your sexual urge is directed only to the sexual attributes this must be recognized as a impoverishment or even a perversion of the urge. It is just because it is directed towards a particular human being that the sexual urge can provide the framework within which, and the basis on which, the possibility of love arises.

Although Love does grow out of the sexual urge and develops on that bases. It is none the less given its definitive shape by acts of will at the level of the person. All this is possible because the sexual urge does not fully determine human behavior but leaves room for the free exercise of the will.

 

[Debora123]

Why not make the most of your fertile time?
What happens when the long passionate sex is no longer there? I think we know already that nothing else is there to unite when there is no lovemaking. The maximization of pleasure will slways stand in the way of love.

God bless

You make it sound like the only reason we have sex is for pleasure, or that having good sex doesn’t matter. Respectfully, neither or these is the case. Having a healthy sex life IS important in a young marriage. Our sex life was not healthy.

 

[Debora123]

It’s not at all about the days of abstinence for me. It’s the whole kit n caboodle. **BOTH parties can feel pressure to have sex on days when they really aren’t in the mood just because they know they have a period of abstinence coming up, or to have sex more often during those times when they are able just for the sake of it. This isn’t pressure coming from one spouse or another, just pressure the spouses put on themselves. **

Oh my gosh!!! Thank you SO much for saying this!!! This is EXACTLY the problem we had and it feels so good to be understood or to know that we’re not the only ones who have struggled with this. Thank you!!

 

[Debora123]

@Deborah
you need to read this book “Good News about Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West. If you read this book I guarantee you will at least see where we are coming from and be able to acknowledge based on the premises in the book for what marriage and love are all about, contraception is wrong. Even if you don’t agree with us you will at least see where we are coming from. The book also has LOTS of great stuff on the differences between NFP and contraception and helpful analogies I have not heard from any other source. In my opinion, this book or something like it should be required for all newly weds.

Hello Nate!

Thanks a bunch for your concern and desire to help out. It is very nice and charitable of you, and I appreciate the kindness.

I actually have read “Good News About Sex and Marriage.”

I actually heard Christopher West speak before too. We were lucky enough to have him come to our University and give a talk. I heard him speak and then bought his book and really liked it.

A lot of the stuff he says is very much on par with Mary Beth Bonacci as well. I don’t know if you’ve heard of her, but she’s pretty much the female version of Chris West. I’ve heard her speak twice and I own both of her books.

Trust me, I understand sex and marriage and all that. I never could quite grasp the issue of contraception but went into my marriage being obedient anyway. I learned NFP and even bought an NFP machine to help out. However, right from the get go, it started to cause a lot of stress/pressure in our marriage and in our sex life. After much prayer, discernment, and even the blessing of my Jesuit priest, we decided to follow our consciences and use condoms on my fertile days. Our sex life has been much better ever since and it was very liberating on our marriage.

NFP works great for some people, and more power to them! Unfortunately, this is not the case for everyone.

God bless!

Debora

 

[Bookcat]

Having a healthy sex life IS important in a young marriage. Our sex life was not healthy.

Contraceptive sex is extremely unhealthy. It is contrary to what is needed healthy sex. Contrary to the meaning that sex is to have.

 

[Debora123]

That’s not even close to what my point was. I’m talking about couples who do use NFP, but use it occasionally, not as their primary and ‘dead-serious’ form of controlling/spacing births. I’m not talking about couples “who do not use NFP.”

I think this is really blowing off as trivial the concerns of others who have expressed them here. I repeat: the crux of the matter is for Catholic couples who seriously want to limit their fertility - not once in awhile, but all/most of the time. For them, NFP will be a source of anxiety if they dread an accident. Period. So for them to be able to use NFP and not have it interfere with their lovemaking, they will have to become resigned to the possibility of pregnancy.

This is true. For women who are extremely passionate about motherhood and actually WANT a huge family, and who’s husbands make a LOT of money, NFP is no big deal.

They don’t have to use it as a way of life almost every single month that they are not already pregnant.

For women like me, who just got married, who needs to work 5 days a week, who’s husband works 60 hours a week trying to build flight time so that he can someday be a decently paid pilot, and who honestly can’t see herself having more than 3 kids, NFP is (our would be) a way of life. (Not to mention the women in my family tend to be extremely fertile.)

 

[mark_a]

What make NFP better for you?

No headaches!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

This is true. For women who are extremely passionate about motherhood and actually WANT a huge family, and who’s husbands make a LOT of money, NFP is no big deal.

They don’t have to use it as a way of life almost every single month that they are not already pregnant.

For women like me, who just got married, who needs to work 5 days a week, who’s husband works 60 hours a week trying to build flight time so that he can someday be a decently paid pilot, and who honestly can’t see herself having more than 3 kids, NFP is (our would be) a way of life. (Not to mention the women in my family tend to be extremely fertile.)

So what about women like me?..I should not have anymore children because I more likely than not cannot carry a baby to term.

I tend to be very fertile as well, but I have a hard time keeping the pregnancies going.

I guess I must be either stupid or careless because I obey the Church and use NFP. Neither my husband nor I will ever contracept again. I am very comfortable using Creighton.

 

[Debora123]

Contraceptive sex is extremely unhealthy. It is contrary to what is needed healthy sex. Contrary to the meaning that sex is to have.

This has not been my experience. Neither has it been the experience of my parents who have a great marriage and use condoms.

We all have a very healthy sex life.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

This has not been my experience. Neither has it been the experience of my parents who have a great marriage and use condoms.

We all have a very healthy sex life.

Could you define healthy? (keeping it pg )

 

[Debora123]

So what about women like me?..I should not have anymore children because I more likely than not cannot carry a baby to term.

I tend to be very fertile as well, but I have a hard time keeping the pregnancies going.

I guess I must be either stupid or careless because I obey the Church and use NFP. Neither my husband nor I will ever contracept again. I am very comfortable using Creighton.

If it works for you, great. I have not had the same experience. Every situation is different, every person is different.

I did not call anyone stupid or careless.

 

[Bookcat]

This has not been my experience. Neither has it been the experience of my parents who have a great marriage and use condoms.

We all have a very healthy sex life.

By definition all who use contraception have objectively an unhealthy sex life.

 

[Bookcat]

" In the conjugal act it is not licit to separate the unitive aspect from the procreative aspect, because both the one and the other pertain to the intimate truth of the conjugal act. The one is activated together with the other and in a certain sense the one by means of the other. Therefore, in such a case the conjugal act, deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love."

~ Bl. Pope John Paul II General Audience, August 22, 1984 (emphasis added)

 

[Debora123]

Could you define healthy? (keeping it pg )

Passionate, connecting, liberating, and physically and/or emotionally satisfying. Helps our marriage and allows us to become one physically and spiritually. Makes us happy because we know we made the other person feel loved and happy by giving them the gift of ourselves and renewing our wedding vows.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

If it works for you, great. I have not had the same experience. Every situation is different, every person is different.

I did not call anyone stupid or careless.

I didn’t say you did.

But NFP will be my reality until menopause, so not neccessarily a short term prospect.

What would be very easy to do is to get a tubal ligation, pregnancy for me has the actual risk of losing a baby.

I don’t want ease though, I want to obey the Church.