From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Bookcat]

This does not happen in homosexual sex.

Nor does what is supposed to happen …happen in contraceptive sex.

I agree of course homosexual activity is not sexual relations.

Contraceptive sex too is not the real article either. It is not sex as it is designed to be.

The meaning of sex is gutted. Sure there is pleasure and a going through the motions but such I imagine can be said of acts of homosexuals in a sense.

Indeed as Bl. Pope John Paul II taught in an audience in 1984 that contraceptive relations:

“deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love”

 

[Warrior1979]

I have advised looking inward at self and examining conscience.

Sometimes that makes matters worse.

 

[Blacksword]

Why? Because the Church says they can’t? Because it’s contrary to natural law? Why are those facts valid with respect to homosexuality but not contraception?

As I’ve said over and over again (and to which no one has responded), you cannot reject the Church’s teachings on contraception without calling into question their teachings on everything else about sexual morality. They all derive from the same philosophical tradition and therefore they all stand or fall together.

No they don’t, and the large consensus of Church theologians agrees they don’t stand or fall together. With respect to homosexual acts, as a category they cannot fundamentally result in life. With respect to sex between male and female, contraception can fail, life is always biologically possible, and further the fact that one might contract in one act doesn’t mean other acts not contracted are nullified somehow. That’s a brief explanation, but suffice to say they are biologically and fundamentally not the same. And this is off-topic, why not start a new topic on whether homosexual relations are equivalent to marital sex using BC.

 

[Blacksword]

Why? Because the Church says they can’t? Because it’s contrary to natural law? Why are those facts valid with respect to homosexuality but not contraception?

As I’ve said over and over again (and to which no one has responded), you cannot reject the Church’s teachings on contraception without calling into question their teachings on everything else about sexual morality. They all derive from the same philosophical tradition and therefore they all stand or fall together.

No they don’t, and the large consensus of Church theologians agrees they don’t stand or fall together. With respect to homosexual acts, as a category they cannot fundamentally result in life. With respect to sex between male and female, contraception can fail, life is always biologically possible, and further the fact that one might contract in one act doesn’t mean other acts not contracted are nullified somehow. That’s a brief explanation, but suffice to say they are biologically and fundamentally not the same. And this is off-topic, why not start a new topic on whether homosexual relations are equivalent to marital sex using BC?

 

[Bookcat]

No they don’t, and the large consensus of Church theologians agrees they don’t stand or fall together.

not

(nor would it even matter if they did…)

 

[Blacksword]

I am glad you decided to get rid of the contraceptives…That is great!

Married sex or rather martial relations is wonderful. It is open to life…an exercise in total self gift (including ones fertility)…

Great!

Wait, are you suggesting here that sex using BC is not actually sex at all??? Whaaa?

 

[Warrior1979]

“deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love”

This statement makes me extremely uncomfortable. The couple can spend time together, raise children, go to Church together, pray together, etc. which all are acts of love. But once they have conjugal relations with a contraceptive, love somehow ceases.

To be quite honest, I’ve been on both sides of the fence…I’ve used contraceptives in the past, but haven’t used them in eons. I don’t see the difference in practice in terms of conjugal relations and love.

 

[Bookcat]

Wait, are you suggesting here that sex using BC is not actually sex at all??? Whaaa?

If a husband and wife have intercourse…say with a condom…such is yes…not really marital relations. Marital relations require openness to life…

Such is contrary to the unitive and the procreative requirements of such an act.

Similar to the fact that homosexual activity does not meet the requirements. But in a different way.

 

[Bookcat]

This statement makes me extremely uncomfortable. The couple can spend time together, raise children, go to Church together, pray together, etc. which all are acts of love. But once they have conjugal relations with a contraceptive, love somehow ceases.

.

He is not saying all the love in the marriage ceases…

 

[Corki]

Wait, are you suggesting here that sex using BC is not actually sex at all??? Whaaa?

Yes but a better word would be “true” not “actual”. See Bookcat’s quote from Blessed Pope John Paul II above. Contraceptive sex is not true marital sex. It is sex in the same way that fornicaion is sex and in the same way that homosexual acts are sex – they are all imperfect expressions of marital sex. They are all missing something that would make the acts true acts of sexual expression.

 

[Blacksword]

Nor does what is supposed to happen …happen in contraceptive sex.

I agree of course homosexual activity is not sexual relations.

Contraceptive sex too is not the real article either. It is not sex as it is designed to be.

The meaning of sex is gutted. Sure there is pleasure and a going through the motions but such I imagine can be said of acts of homosexuals in a sense.

Indeed as Bl. Pope John Paul II taught in an audience in 1984 that contraceptive relations:

“deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love”

The unitive purpose of sex is not “gutted”. It is, at least in intent, separated from the procreative, which is the exact SAME intent at work in NFP, sorry. The question is whether this can be licit in at least some instances during a couple’s marriage. And this remains off-topic, why not start a new thread?

 

[Corki]

This statement makes me extremely uncomfortable. The couple can spend time together, raise children, go to Church together, pray together, etc. which all are acts of love. But once they have conjugal relations with a contraceptive, love somehow ceases.

To be quite honest, I’ve been on both sides of the fence…I’ve used contraceptives in the past, but haven’t used them in eons. I don’t see the difference in practice in terms of conjugal relations and love.

That’s not what he said. You can have all kinds of expressions of love that don’t involve sex. But for marital sex to be a true expression of love it must be both ordered toward procreation and unitive. You can’t have one without the other - in the marital act. That doesn’t mean that the love between the spouses ceases.

 

[Bookcat]

The unitive purpose of sex is not “gutted”. It is, at least in intent, separated from the procreative, which is the exact SAME intent at work in NFP, sorry.

Your misunderstand the theology both of marriage and of NFP. Yes the Contraception attacks the unitive too…

I am not going to get into the long explanation of either here…it will take too long. I do not have that kind of time. And there are lots of sources out there that go into detail on the realities involved.

 

[Bookcat]

Indeed as Bl. Pope John Paul II taught in an audience in 1984 that an act of contraceptive relations:

“deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love”

 

[ahs]

Wow who knew periodic continence could bring you closer to your spouse what did you ever do when your wife was ovulating and the lovemaking was not there:shrug:

We prayed, we talked, went for walks, played with the kids, learned to communicate better. I’ve always been a “read my mind” guy. When I’m upset, I get quiet and hold it in and let things stew. (That’s not good by the way. )

So, when we were struggling with abstinence during the fertile period, I would get even more upset and just not talk at all…yet I was still obviously upset about whatever it happened to be at the time. Since we were abstaining, we HAD to talk because we certainly couldn’t do anything physical, and this forced me to open up, to communnicate my feelings and to talk out what was bothering me. So, I gradually became a better communicator, my wife did not have to guess how I felt, and we grew closer in that way. (I do still have to force myself to speak my emotions by the way…it is a continual growing process.)

As we communicated more, we learned more about each other, the deep stuff…stuff that takes time to learn. As we learn more about each other through our newly discovered wide-open communication, our bond strengthened (and continues to) and our love deepened. We became able to show love in other ways, to LOVE (action verb) each other and not just “feel” love (the cuddly feeling). It’s to a point now where we can feel completely bonded to one another by just havnig a deep conversation…I can’t describe that feeling…it just feels like we are truly one at those times.

Anyway, NFP (the periodic continence part especially) forced us to this position in our marriage. If we never had to abstain, I would have no reason to learn to communicate better or to find different ways to bond with my wife. That’s how it helped our marriage. It is NOT always easy, and it DOES, even still, bring up tough situations and issues that stress our marriage. BUT, it is a healthy stress in that it forces us to grow deeper together and strengthen our marriage bond and helps us grow together.

Yes, NFP can be painful at times (emotionally, mentally, you could even argue physically I suppose, and spritually). But positive growth is also painful, and it is SOOOO worth it when you realize the benefits you’ve been getting from the stress.

-ahs

 

[Bookcat]

Contra- ception

by the way means even “against” conception.

Lets be positive in our marriages

 

[Odell]

Respectfully, you yourself contributed to this when you specifically and personally asked ME questions about why NFP didn’t work for me. Just sayin.

Your right but I had no intention of the majority of this thread being why NFP does not work for couples.

Also, I didn’t realize that the opposing side couldn’t give their personal views/opinions on controversial thread subjects. My mistake.

PS - homosexuals can’t have sex.

And when you say something like this its really really hard not to respond.

This statement makes me extremely uncomfortable. The couple can spend time together, raise children, go to Church together, pray together, etc. which all are acts of love. But once they have conjugal relations with a contraceptive, love somehow ceases.

To be quite honest, I’ve been on both sides of the fence…I’ve used contraceptives in the past, but haven’t used them in eons. I don’t see the difference in practice in terms of conjugal relations and love.

Love does not cease but the sexual act is not love. Same with the homosexual act it is not love.

The reason behind this is because love is a giving yourself totally to one another a complete surrender of each to the other self-giving. If not it is in danger that the man may treat the woman as an object, and indeed an object to be use. In giving ourselves we find clear proof that we possess ourselves. You dont possess yourself if you give into your emotions the will is not involved. Instead your emotions control your will. This is why periodic continence should help train the will. Contraception again puts the man and woman in danger of using one another though at first not so noticeable not even intended. You can become trained to it, give into your emotions every time they arise.

This is why contraception has not worked for me. A twist to this thread

I know exactly what people go through on this forum who struggle with NFP. I have and some times still do. But I have to pull myself back in. My wife and I slipped up. Because I could not control my emotions and a man who cannot control himself the act truly means nothing. I bought condoms a year ago and we used them. We knew we where in the wrong. The alarm even went off during the act! The alarm was not set, not even turned on the alarm setting. And I never set the time for 11:00 12:00 pm or am. Strange but did not stop us, we where already in the heat of the moment. Afterwards we both cried because we knew what we did. The alarm went off as a warning and we had just ignored it. I threw the condoms away the next day. But that did not stop me from buying more a month or so later. We gave in again and we felt bad again and I again threw the rest of the pack away. No more alarm It would only help I would think . More problems came with it one sin leads into another. I wanted oral sex more and more. My wife would give in. I wanted it everyday. If it wasn’t that it was masturbating that started to become an issue. Then lusting after other women. I use to be good about this, really good when we where very active with NFP. I would even avoid making comments when other men would. But ever since slipping up and getting those condoms lusting started becoming a big problem, the more woman I looked at the easier it became.

The women who post on here have no idea how they effect there husbands when you allow him to contracept. It is extremely difficult for men and woman too but especially men with today’s culture. When we my wife and I practiced periodic continence I was a better husband to my wife in her prescience and behind her back. Periodic continence is the only answer to this in my opinion. You just don’t know the damage contraception can do in the long especially to your husband.

 

[sw85]

Do you want be to get graphic? Intercourse = penis in vagina. This does not happen in homosexual sex.

I agree. The reason I agree that intercourse necessarily involves sexual complementarity is because the sexual act has procreation as its telos. Natural law tells us that goodness consists in instantiating one’s telos, or using one’s faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends. Hence the prohibition on all disordered sexual acts, where “disordered” is understood to mean “intrinsically nonprocreative.” This necessarily includes contraception.

No they don’t, and the large consensus of Church theologians agrees they don’t stand or fall together. With respect to homosexual acts, as a category they cannot fundamentally result in life. With respect to sex between male and female, contraception can fail, life is always biologically possible, and further the fact that one might contract in one act doesn’t mean other acts not contracted are nullified somehow. That’s a brief explanation, but suffice to say they are biologically and fundamentally not the same. And this is off-topic, why not start a new topic on whether homosexual relations are equivalent to marital sex using BC?

Contraception can indeed fail. That’s not the point. Again, that is a consequentialist view of things.

Contraception has as its end the subversion of the procreative faculty. If pregnancy results, it is only because this particular instantiation of the contraceptive sexual act has failed. It is therefore an intrinsic evil. Likewise with homosexuality, which is intrinsically nonprocreative. (Surely you cannot think the Church in her wisdom failed to consider the reality that contraception is not universally effective?)

It is only “off-topic” if you have decided *a priori *that the Church’s teachings on sexual morality are a negotiable morass of points unrelated to one another. I reject that assumption. There is no rational way to reconcile belief in the validity of contraception with disbelief in the validity of alternative forms of sexual expression (as the modern utilitarian might put it) without indulging in rank consequentialism.

 

[Corki]

Why does the act feel better? From my experence I feel like I’m not using my wife and the act is more complete. An anology I use with prople who do contracept but are currently trying to have a child cannot not say that there is something different from the act of when you attemt to have a child vs the times you contracepted. No one can argue that there is that something there that was not before that makes the act feel more complete. Cannot quite put my finger on it. So I would like more help on possibly making this analogy better or from some of your own experiences. What make NFP better for you?

And my quote above was on general teaching authority levels and could be applied to many unrelated things. I made no specific recommendation on behavior. And this is off-topic, why don’t you give the OP some positive experiences you’ve had with NFP and I will happily listen.

Ok, here’s my no-so-exciting story about NFP.

Some background - We entered marriage with me on “the Pill” for what had been diagnosed as hormone imbalances. (After several years and 10 different prescriptions, a good pro-life doctor found the real problem which was not hormonal, I had minor surgery and no more issues in that regard. But that’s another story.) Against doctors’ recommendations I went “off the pill” to try to get pregnant. No success. NFP, by the way, wasn’t even mentioned in our marriage prep. I was introduced to NFP by my doctor as a way to try to get pregnant.

Positive experience #1 - both of my children were conceived while using NFP to try to conceive.

After child #1 was born, I was advised to wait to get pregnant again. My husband was assigned overseas on a project. He was home for 4-5 days every six weeks. As luck would have it, more often than not, the time home did not match up with “safe” days. That led to positive experience #2. We spent so much effort trying to make up for the fact that we weren’t having sex on those brief times together that we had a lot of fun doing things we never would have tried. We took golf lessons, went camping (something he had never done before) and learned to salsa dance.

We were very happy when the waiting was over and we could try conceiving again. This is positive experience #3. There is nothing better than married sex without counting anything. As one of the NFP apologists (I think it was Janet Smith) says, all the “nos” are in service to the big “YES”.

After a very difficult delivery with son #2, I was again advised to wait to conceive again. As I was over 40, and pre-menopausal (I know, TMI ) I had to learn NFP all over again. It was that study that led me to the great teachings of the Church on marriage. So that’s **positive experience #4. **

I resent this insinuation. I rarely get involved in NFP discussions, and to both of you, this thread was highjacked LONG before I got involved in it, thank you very much. But i wish both of you well despite your implying I’m a heretic. God bless you.

If you rarely get involved in NFP threads, then this obviously wasn’t directed at you. And nothing I said even came close to implying that you are a heretic.

 

[Bookcat]

Hot off the press…

from a day or so ago… I know…but I just saw it

From ArchBishop Timothy Dolan (who is also Pres. of the US Confer. of Bishops)

blog.archny.org/?p=1473